Killers of the Flower Moon editor Thelma Schoonmaker, ACE has actually had a front-row seat to a few of the most celebrated movies of the previous 4 many years, working as director Martin Scorsese’s editor and filmmaking companion. The pair reunite as soon as once more for Killers of the Flower Moon, starring Leonardo DiCaprio and Robert De Niro, two mainstays of Scorsese’s performing troupe, in addition to Lily Gladstone, who delivers a breakout efficiency as Mollie Kyle.
Killers of the Flower Moon Plot Summary
Killers of the Flower Moon was directed by Martin Scorsese from a screenplay he co-wrote with Eric Roth, primarily based on the 2017 non-fiction ebook of the identical title by David Grann. Set in 1920’s Oklahoma, it focuses on a collection of murders of Osage members and relations within the Osage Nation after oil was being produced on tribal land. Tribal members had retained mineral rights on their reservation, and whites sought to realize their wealth.
In our dialogue with Killers of the Flower Moon editor Thelma Schoonmaker ACE, we discuss:
- Leaning into the love story
- When to chop to DiCaprio or De Niro
- Scorsese’s taking pictures model
- The structural perfection of Goodfellas
- Twelve cuts to completion
Editing Killers of the Flower Moon
Matt Feury: As I perceive it, you usually come on when the movie begins taking pictures. But earlier than that, are there any ways in which Martin Scorsese brings you into the method, maybe by way of suggestions on the concepts for the movie and the fabric earlier than he begins taking pictures?
Thelma Schoonmaker: Rarely, however there was one time that I loved. It was after we made the film Kundun, concerning the Dalai Lama being compelled to go away Tibet due to the Chinese invasion. He wanted to have some thought concerning the sand mandala, which is an incredible sand portray that the monks did for 2 weeks utilizing little funnels of various coloured sand. These monks create an incredible design with completely different symbols for the faith all through.
After they end doing this sand mandala on the bottom, they wash all of it away within the river, which is an exquisite thought. Marty needed to begin Kundun with some very tight pictures of a few of the issues we see within the mandala.
He despatched me down to look at the monks making a sand mandala in a studio in New York. What they had been doing was being filmed in an exquisite means to be used all through the film. There had been occasions after we would immediately really feel that some pictures from that mandala can be useful to us in sure transitions, significantly when the Dalai Lama is being compelled to flee.
I beloved attending to know the monks and likewise attending to know the thought of creating this mandala, which is so intense, after which washing all of it away, which is a really Buddhist thought. That was the one time that I used to be referred to as in beforehand in order that I may give him ideas. I’d say, “This image is good” and provides him stills so he may know which of them he needed to {photograph}.
MF: One of the nice issues about filmmaking is you get to be taught a lot about different folks, locations, and time intervals by way of the fabric. In Killers of the Flower Moon, you’ve gotten a ebook that you might draw from. Did you learn it or was there any temptation to learn it going into this mission?
Thelma Schoonmaker: Oh, no, no, no. I knew that I ought to learn that ebook. I undoubtedly learn it. That’s what the movie is predicated on. But it’s a documentary ebook. It’s not a fiction ebook. Marty needed to remodel it right into a film. But the knowledge in that ebook is so vital to understanding what occurred and the fantastic, superb issues he discovered, which took him fairly some time.
That ebook is so fashionable due to what folks have heard concerning the film, or what they already knew. It was primary and should be primary on the checklist of best-selling books. After the massive reception of Killers at Cannes, it was primary.
Number two was the second ebook by David Grann referred to as The Wager. It’s a couple of mutiny on a ship off the Cape of Good Hope or one thing. I don’t know which cape it’s. I haven’t learn that one. I haven’t had the time. But he was primary and quantity two on the bestseller checklist. People are utilizing his ebook as an exquisite supply in the event that they wish to know extra about what’s being portrayed within the film.
MF: I’ve learn that Marty, and that title sounds incorrect popping out of my mouth, however for brevity’s sake, I’ll say Marty.
Thelma Schoonmaker: That’s okay.
MF: Thank you. Marty has an enhancing model and tempo in thoughts going into a movie.
Thelma Schoonmaker: Yes. He needed to make use of a easy model and get the viewer to interact with scenes the place they’re spending a while with the characters and starting to really feel what they’re like. It was an easier model than a few of the different films he’s made up to now. That would have been very sturdy in his thoughts. This movie has a sure construct that’s essential.
“It was a simpler style than some of the other movies he’s made in the past.”
For instance, there’s the fantastic opening scene the place Ernest (Leonardo DiCaprio) is invited to dinner by Mollie and they’re regularly feeling one another out. He’s discovering out that she’s fairly a formidable lady with sturdy opinions and dignity. And she is discovering out that he’s fairly sincere about his weaknesses. He is aware of that he’s lazy and he likes to occasion.
It’s fascinating as a result of it begins as slightly joust between the 2 of them and regularly you’ll be able to really feel how their attraction to one another is constructing. The indisputable fact that he’s good-looking and that he’s interested in her permits her to consider him regardless that he’s confessed these weaknesses. I believe she feels that he desires a house. He’s been by way of in all probability not a simple life, being in World War I and getting back from one thing like that.
In the scene along with her sisters, she says, “He’s content.” She’s principally saying, “He’s not going to run off.” She doesn’t say these phrases however she senses that possibly that is somebody she desires to have a relationship with. That develops regularly.
MF: The viewers enters this world and experiences issues by way of Ernest. But we’re not utterly aligned with him as a result of, as you identified. We solely get a real sense of who he’s over time. We see the atrocities and the violence he takes half in.
You give us a fast scene exhibiting him participating in a theft after which dropping the jewellery he stole in a poker recreation. We know he’s corrupt and easy and form of dumb, however we nonetheless don’t really feel the depth of his betrayal and complicity till later. Is that one thing that you just needed to give attention to calibrating, how sympathetic we may very well be and even how a lot we may presumably like Ernest?
Thelma Schoonmaker: Yes, I do assume that the love story is the fundamental factor that Marty determined to give attention to when the thought concerning the movie modified. DiCaprio determined he want to play Ernest as a substitute of the FBI man, the position that Jesse Plemons performs. As you’ll be able to think about, that was a dramatic change within the script. They had been nonetheless engaged on that as they had been taking pictures with the 2 actors. Lily Gladstone and DiCaprio had been working with Marty to create scenes that may present the evolving love story.
This is all true as a result of I believe there have been three trials. They couldn’t get Robert De Niro’s character within the first trial. I believe there was a mistrial after which he was discovered not responsible. Then, lastly, when the DiCaprio character determined to testify in opposition to his uncle who has had him beneath his thumb for all the film, that’s after they lastly bought William Hale despatched to jail, to Leavenworth Penitentiary.
At that time, the FBI agent stated to the true Mollie, “Why do you stay with Ernest?” and he or she stated, “I love him.” So, this love story is essential within the film. Most folks inform me they imagine it. There have been films made by folks like my husband, Michael Powell. He made Peeping Tom, the place there’s a person who’s an actual assassin however you are feeling sympathy for the best way he’s been tortured and made into doing these horrible deeds. That’s why the critics flipped out and determined they needed to destroy the film. They had been feeling responsible about having any compassion for this man.
But that’s the nice energy of Peeping Tom, which we’ve restored now and is being proven far and wide once more in theaters. That’s all resulting from Scorsese, who has at all times been the most important supporter of Michael Powell and Emeric Pressburger‘s films from very early on. He went and found them living in oblivion, forgotten, these great masterpieces not seen anymore. Now they are being seen. I’m in England now celebrating the work of the 2 nice males. Young individuals are flocking to the screenings and we’re promoting tickets and it’s actually working. But that was all resulting from Marty and the British Film Institute.
MF: I can’t imagine that you just introduced up Peeping Tom. I used to be not conscious of this new effort, however I needed to inform you how a lot that movie impacted me in movie faculty. It’s unimaginable that you just introduced that up. We’ll discuss that slightly extra another day.
Describing enhancing isn’t a simple factor to do, contemplating how instinctive a lot of it’s. But I’m going to ask you about one scene particularly. It’s the primary scene between Ernest and King Hale. The rhythm of that scene could be very fundamental if I can use that phrase. It’s a two-shot. Then, you’ve gotten some over-the-shoulder pictures between the 2 of them. What drives the rhythm of that scene? As I used to be watching it, I simply thought, “I wouldn’t know where to go.”
Thelma Schoonmaker: Well, it’s important to have unbelievable performances to begin with. That is at all times very useful.
MF: Yes, I think about.
Thelma Schoonmaker: What you must really feel there, and I believe you do, is that the De Niro character, Hale, is feeling out this nephew of his. He’s attempting to determine if he can use him as a result of he’s enticing and single. Can he use him to pressure his means into the wealth of Mollie’s household?
The one essential factor there was to attend typically earlier than De Niro spoke. You see him trying. He’s analyzing his nephew. He’s bought his head again and he’s him, sizing him up. That was the best way we labored on the rhythm of that scene, to make it possible for we typically paused for just a few seconds greater than we usually would.
You see that De Niro is attempting to make up his thoughts. He’s pondering, “What questions should I ask next to find out if this guy is going to be a tool I can use?” It’s apparent within the movie that DiCaprio’s character doesn’t learn, for instance. His uncle says, “Do you read?” and he will get nervous instantly, He says, “Yeah, you know, I’m not thick, I can read”, however you’ll be able to inform instantly that he doesn’t know the best way to learn. He can barely learn. He’s been horribly educated, whereas his uncle is a lot better educated than him.
Hale additionally has this weird love of the Osage however on the identical time, he’s keen to inflict damage upon them. That form of character isn’t uncommon in fiction. It’s fascinating to see this unusual mixture. Even De Niro stated throughout the press convention at Cannes, “I don’t understand him. How could he hold these two ideas in his body?” But he performed him superbly. That was how we did the rhythm of that scene. We used some hesitation and a few quiet moments.
“I don’t understand him. How could he hold these two ideas in his body?”
MF: As you stated, King Hale asks Ernest, “Can you read?” He requested that as a result of he gave Ernest a ebook. It’s referred to as Lilly’s Wild Tales Among the Indians, and it has a chapter on Osage tradition and historical past.
Thelma Schoonmaker: Yeah.
MF: After Ernest meets Mollie on their first trip collectively, he reads a part of the ebook out loud. For you, is that this an efficient technique of offering a backstory concerning the Osage to the viewers? Is it a technique to exhibit Ernest’s fascination with Mollie? Is it each or another perform altogether?
Thelma Schoonmaker: It was each. It was to point out one thing concerning the Osage, solely slightly. Marty stated, “I’m not making a documentary about the Osage. I’m making a film about a white man and an Osage woman who fall in love with each other. The movie will be filled with the Osage culture, with people on screen and off screen.” So many Osage labored on the movie and are within the movie.
We needed to present some details about what had occurred to the Osage, however we didn’t wish to spend an excessive amount of time on that. The ebook was a fast technique to give the viewers an thought of a few of their historical past.
MF: I at all times felt like a technique that you just create ahead momentum within the movies that you just do is by introducing characters earlier than they’re a part of the story and instilling anticipation for them.
For instance, the character of Acie Kirby (performed by Pete Yorn) is introduced up just a few occasions as this feared henchman earlier than he’s ever really there. I can’t cite examples off the highest of my head, however I really feel like that’s one thing that has been part of your model over time. Am I simply imagining that or is there a aware effort in your half to do this?
Thelma Schoonmaker: It may very well be. I didn’t consider it that means. But you’re proper that he’s talked about quite a bit and also you don’t see a lot of him throughout the entire film. He’s solely essential as somebody who blows up the home. He’s not as essential as a few of the different fantastic character actors on this film.
Michael Powell after which Emeric Pressburger used to do what they referred to as, ‘place little bombs in a movie’, little issues that you could be simply barely discover that explode later. It’s not fairly the identical factor right here, however that’s one thing that Marty would have observed in his devouring of the Powell-Pressburger movies.
MF: The movie is devoted to the reminiscence of musician and composer Robbie Robertson, any person who’s had a hand within the music for most of the movies you’ve finished. In this movie, he’s created a rating that has a percussive nature that evokes the form of drums and beat you would possibly hear from Indigenous musicians. That rating strikes forwards and backwards from nearly a bluesy really feel at occasions to having an edgier, nearly dissonant sound.
I’d like to listen to about your course of for working with him and the way you would possibly use the stems from that music just like the drumbeat or the throbbing bass line to underscore sure moments within the movie.
Thelma Schoonmaker: The throbbing bass line was one thing that each Marty and Robbie got here up with. It’s not solely the drums which can be so essential to this tradition, as you see within the final shot. The dances that they do are very sacred. You should be invited to them. They’re not vacationer issues. The drums are extremely essential, they usually think about the drum an individual, as they do the pipe.
Robbie being half Mohawk was additionally essential. Marty needed an Indigenous particular person to do the music. He felt that this may drive the film by way of to the top after we see the drums. It additionally might be blood operating by way of your veins. It’s in all probability bought plenty of significance, however the truth that he constantly employed it meant that in his thoughts he was giving it to Marty as a technique to transfer the movie alongside.
He despatched us a substantial amount of materials, and Marty would take it and construction it the best way he thought it might work greatest for the film. He come across the piece that you just see at first instantly. When you see the oil burst out of the bottom you hear that very sturdy piece of music. Marty stated to me, “I think this could be our theme”, and it’s.
However, there’s additionally plenty of precise music from the time. Marty struggled to make it possible for the music he put within the movie, apart from the rating by Robbie, was music that may have been heard on the time both on a radio or on a report. The music you hear throughout the lengthy Steadicam shot inside the home the place all of Ernest’s household has invaded Mollie’s home is an instance of that. The shot begins with a needle being put down on this excellent piece of music.
Marty has put a substantial amount of music apart from Robbie’s within the movie, which he at all times does. He works actually laborious. He listens very rigorously. He’s certain to be traditionally correct. That work he places in provides the sound of the film a really wealthy mix.
MF: Does Marty have a particular set of tracks that he desires you to make use of or is it a group effort?
Thelma Schoonmaker: Marty chooses the music. Marty has one of many best items for placing music to a film out of anyone, I believe. Sometimes on a movie like Casino, we might have six or seven items of rock and roll that he needed to make use of in every scene. We would strive every one in opposition to the primary reduce of the scene and often one popped out. One would simply match completely. But it’s his design and he comes up with what to even play.
I’m a part of placing it to the scenes and seeing if it really works. Then I’m accountable for seeing that the music is correctly dealt with and blended. That’s one thing he’s only a genius at.
MF: I heard you say as soon as that you’ve got twelve completely different edits of the movie. That appeared like quite a bit to me. How did that work for Killers of the Flower Moon?
Thelma Schoonmaker: We had about twelve. That’s the best way Marty and I work. Then there was the Oklahoma state of affairs. We couldn’t go to Oklahoma as a result of Apple had a wonderful system to maintain everybody from getting Covid-19. They had been testing everyone on a regular basis. They needed fewer folks in Oklahoma to fret about. So we stayed in New York. Marty and I labored on Zooms to have a look at the dailies collectively.
That’s what we at all times do. He tells me what he thinks and I inform him what I believe. I make notes from all of that. Then I do the primary meeting. He additionally provides notes to the script supervisor throughout the entire taking pictures, that are glorious. I get these notes and use them on a regular basis.
I make the primary meeting after which he and I reduce every thing collectively. Once we really feel we have now one thing that works, we invite a small variety of folks and ask them afterward what they assume and both settle for it or not. Sometimes we don’t agree with what they are saying. Then we recut once more and display screen once more and recut once more and display screen once more. We’re very, very fortunate to have that point to develop the film correctly.
MF: Do you recall what had been a few of the extra important adjustments you made to the tone or the construction of the movie by way of these twelve completely different iterations?
Thelma Schoonmaker: There had been sure scenes we moved round. It was not quite a bit. The huge change was the love story changing into the central pressure of the film. We did no matter we may to make it possible for labored. People inform me it does and I’m very comfortable to listen to that.
We did often transfer issues round, however you at all times do in your enhancing, often, apart from Goodfellas the place every thing was good proper from the beginning. That was as a result of Marty and Nick Pileggi had been each so acquainted with that world that they had been working hand in hand. That film was like using a horse. It knew the place it needed to go. We dropped just one shot, which was the younger boy studying to drink espresso. That movie was simply there already. There was plenty of enhancing, nevertheless it was curiously an ideal construction.
MF: Since you introduced up Goodfellas, I interviewed editor Kevin Tent and director Alexander Payne the opposite day. I requested them the query I’m about to ask you. It form of bought me in slightly bother. Against my higher judgment, I’ll ask anyway.
At the top of this film, when Ernest is on the stand, I can not assist however be reminded of Goodfellas. There’s the identical beat the place Ernest, like Henry Hill, is requested to determine and level out the defendant and it’s Robert De Niro once more within the courtroom. With the physique of labor that you just and Marty have, work that’s been celebrated very often, do you ever discover issues like that? Does Marty ever seek advice from any work you’ve finished up to now?
Thelma Schoonmaker: Oh, no. I don’t assume there’s a comparability there as a result of that scene is reduce in a wholly completely different means. We’re reducing forwards and backwards between De Niro and the opposite criminals and Henry Hill. That’s a complete completely different factor.What occurred within the trial scene in Killers is that Marty referred to as me from the set and stated, “Leo is so brilliant in this first take. I don’t want to use anything else. I don’t want to even cut to the prosecutor. I want to just hold on him through his testimony”.
We did have to chop to the prosecutor twice. We needed to reduce to him when he says, “the person he is implicating here is” and a graceful pan along with his arm pointing to De Niro. But we stayed on Leo. We held on Leo. That’s one of many traits of this movie. We maintain on the characters and make you are feeling what they’re going by way of. And it’s a good efficiency.
“That’s one of the characteristics of this film. We hold on the characters and make you feel what they’re going through.”
Then we reduce to Mollie on the finish. Then, after all, we have now the devastating scene the place she asks him to be truthful along with her and he can’t do it. Then she leaves him. It’s very completely different from Goodfellas.
MF: That’s why that query will get me in bother. I’m going to cease asking it.
Thelma Schoonmaker: Well, you didn’t get in bother.
MF: Does Marty bask in doing plenty of completely different takes for his actors? Does he like to present you plenty of protection or is he very economical in the best way he shoots?
Thelma Schoonmaker: It relies on the movie. In Raging Bull, he did fifteen takes on the very finish of the movie when De Niro is confronting himself within the mirror. He and De Niro had been doing a really delicate change from take to take. They would whisper to one another between every take. They had been attempting to determine, “Should he be cold when he confronts himself? Should we feel some warmth towards him at the end?”Marty was adamant that he needed to be chilly. But we had the complete vary.
Normally, he by no means shoots fifteen takes. That was a really uncommon factor. And it was one shot, you already know, so it’s crucial to get it proper. So, no, he doesn’t shoot quite a bit. He shoots much less and fewer, really, over time. My husband, extremely, would solely do one take. When you take a look at these films you’ll be able to see how good the performing is. But these actors had been engaged on the stage and making movies on the identical time in London. They had been so equipped, so ready, so polished that he may simply do one take. That’s fairly astounding to Marty and me.
MF: That’s why they present that movie in movie faculties.
Thelma Schoonmaker: That’s proper.
MF: As I perceive it, Martin Scorsese initially needed to be a priest and also you needed to be a diplomat. Together you each ended up being fairly terrific filmmakers. If you might have finished the rest apart from enhancing, what would it not be? Would it’s to work as a diplomat or one thing else completely?
Thelma Schoonmaker: No, no, no. Once you get hooked on movie you by no means wish to give it up. It’s so inventive, it’s so participating. You turn into addicted. It’s the perfect job on this planet, significantly working for Marty.
Every movie is completely different. Every movie is a brand new problem for me. I’m working with one of many best administrators who ever lived. He additionally gave me the perfect husband anybody may need. What extra may you need? I’ve had all of it.
