Next Goal Wins editor Tom Eagles, ACE first made a reputation for himself together with his ACE Eddie-winning work on Jojo Rabbit (2019). That movie would additionally get Tom an Oscar nomination for Best Film Editing. With Next Goal Wins, Eagles is as soon as once more within the slicing room of a Taika Waititi movie. Tom joined editors Nat Sanders, ACE, Nick Monsour and Yana Gorskaya, ACE for the “sports comedy with a heart”.
Next Goal Wins plot abstract
Based on the 2014 documentary of the identical title by Mike Brett and Steve Jamison, Next Goal Wins is a couple of Dutch American coach’s efforts to guide the American Samoa nationwide soccer staff, thought-about one of many weakest soccer groups on the earth, to qualification for the 2014 FIFA World Cup. The storyline additionally contains fa’afafine participant Jaiyah Saelua, who was the primary non-binary participant ever to compete in a World Cup sport.
In our dialogue with Next Goal Wins editor Tom Eagles, we speak about:
- Adding a personality to offer the movie character
- Coming and happening the slicing crew
- Needle dropping Dolly
- The dailies delights of improv
- Taika Waititi – sofa surfer
Check out The Rough Cut podcast to take heed to this interview.
Editing Next Goal Wins
Matt Feury: Tom, the final time we spoke, you had been working with Jeymes Samuel on The Harder They Fall, which was his directorial debut. But the film we’re speaking about at present, Next Goal Wins, you probably did with Taika Waititi. He’s somebody you will have a number of expertise working with. You labored with him on Hunt for the Wilderpeople and Jojo Rabbit.
How does working with Taika, with whom you have already got a number of historical past, examine to working with a director who’s new to you? Are there sure features of the method which are simply sooner? Can you be extra direct with each other when it comes to suggestions? How does that work with Taika in comparison with another director?
Tom Eagles, ACE: It is quicker. I don’t know if there’s a shorthand, however I’m in all probability bolder with Taika than I may be with somebody I’m working with for the primary time. Like you mentioned, James and I’ve simply achieved our second movie. I’m fairly daring with him, too. But with Taika, it pays to place your greatest foot ahead and try to make the lower pretty much as good as you consider it may be.
Sometimes, even on a primary assemble, I’ll drop scenes, which we could have talked about beforehand. On this movie, I used to be coming in a bit bit later and other people had already tried quite a lot of issues. It felt low danger, like I may attempt no matter I wished and both he likes it or he doesn’t.
By working with him, I’ve realized that it’s important to make a number of gives. It’s the identical approach that he works with actors. People throw in a number of improv. As an editor, it’s important to maintain throwing concepts on the wall till one thing sticks. When he likes one thing, he’ll decide it up and run with it.
“As an editor you have to keep throwing ideas at the wall until something sticks.”
MF: Part of working with Taika as an editor appears to be mastering the artwork of collaboration. He continuously has the fabric go via the palms of a number of editors, most frequently you and Yana Gorskaya. Are there issues that you simply do to make it a extra seamless course of?
Tom Eagles, ACE: I at all times attempt to speak to the opposite editors. Nat Sanders was the one that I attempted to collaborate with on this. He’d been on simply earlier than me and I requested that they carry him again onto the film as a result of I solely had a sure window of time. Also, having 5 editors is loopy, so I attempted to maintain up communication with him.
You’re there to your contemporary eyes and also you wish to make your personal impressions first. But sooner or later, it’s good to return to the opposite editors and ask, “Is there anything that you just couldn’t quite figure out? Any challenges that you foresee? If I go down this route, am I wasting my time?” Communication is essential in that regard.
MF: When you be part of a venture that’s in course of, do you progress into the put up facility? Were you at house with an area copy of the venture and media? How does it work from a technical standpoint to leap in halfway?
Tom Eagles, ACE: It can work in a number of methods. For this one, sure, I moved into Digital Vortechs in Echo Park. They had a few suites. Aaron Brock, who was aiding, labored from house. It was simply me in a bit workplace in a wing of Vortechs with a few different productions happening round me. I simply picked up and ran with what was there.
MF: Seven years earlier than this movie, there was a documentary of the identical title referred to as Next Goal Wins. It informed the story of a soccer coach, Thomas Rongen, attempting to assist the traditionally dangerous American Samoa soccer staff qualify for the FIFA World Cup.
When I say traditionally dangerous, for those who don’t know, they as soon as misplaced a match to Australia, thirty-one to nothing. So, it was no small feat to get them to qualify. Did you watch that documentary as a part of your preparation to work on the function? What different issues would possibly you do to arrange for a venture?
Tom Eagles, ACE: I did watch the documentary. That was one of many few bits of prep I did as a result of I used to be coming in late. I didn’t have a number of time. I met these guys. The first time I turned conscious of this venture was approach again after we had been slicing Hunt for the Wilderpeople.
We had been in Hawaii and these two British guys turned up. I bear in mind taking pictures pool with them for a bit, and I couldn’t work out who they had been or why they had been there. They turned out to be the administrators of the documentary they usually’d come to pitch Taika to do his model of the story.
I bear in mind our producer on the time saying, “He’s got so many projects that it will probably never happen.” But flash ahead, and right here we’re. I watched the documentary and I wasn’t too connected to the particularities of the story.
I wished to get a vibe of who Thomas Rongen and Jaiyah had been. They’re primarily based on actual individuals, so I felt prefer it was at the least respectful to seek out out who these actual individuals had been, whether or not we had been going to stick to that or not. You have to know the fabric and know what you’re coping with.
MF: I do know you’re so near Taika. Will he ship you a script to get your ideas on what scenes may be within the last product?
Tom Eagles, ACE: He has prior to now, however not on this one. We had been engaged on Jojo Rabbit when he was prepping this, after which I had one other movie again in New Zealand that I used to be happening to. I simply couldn’t learn one other script whereas I used to be slicing that film. I don’t assume I went again and browse the script.
When I bought onto Next Goal Wins I used to be fascinated by what the fabric was. I bear in mind there was a number of improv. I had the cuts that had already been achieved, so I checked out a bunch of them. I don’t bear in mind sitting down and studying the script.
MF: The movie opens with what seems to be archival footage of the true American Samoa soccer staff. Was this from the documentary? Was it sourced from elsewhere, or was this new footage made to appear like archival?
Tom Eagles, ACE: It was from the documentary. I don’t know the place they bought it from. I suppose they bought it from whoever was screening the sport on the time. Then we match lower to Nicky Salapu, however it’s our imaginative and prescient of Nicky, performed by Uli Latukefu. The shot begins large and then you definately get shut and see him collapse on the bottom. That’s what bookended the film. It was necessary to see our Nicky in direction of the tip of that montage.
MF: In a sports activities or motion film, you’re going to have these set items. But generally inside a movie, you will have what I name editorial set items within the type of commercials, PSAs, or coaching movies. It’s short-form content material that’s there to supply exposition or coloration as a substitute of longer dialog scenes.
In this film, there’s a “Welcome to American Samoa” journey video. If you’re attempting to tighten the film, that’s an apparent candidate for slicing, however it provides comedy and context to the film. Did you’re employed on that component and was it ever liable to being lower?
Tom Eagles, ACE: I didn’t work on that, however I assumed it was good. That’s the work of Nick Monsour, who was the primary editor on that. It probably went via a number of permutations. There had been longer variations of it.
People don’t know rather a lot about Samoa. They don’t know the distinction between Western Samoa and American Samoa. It was helpful to have a bit intro and to do this in a comedic approach. Everything’s a candidate for slicing, however we in all probability simply lower that down. I don’t assume there was ever a time once I significantly thought-about dropping it.
MF: Taika opens the movie nearly as if he’s going to be the narrator. We see him first and he’s setting the movie up, after which we hear him later. We see him on display as a priest concerned within the story. Was there ever a model with extra of him in it?
“Everything’s a candidate for cutting.”
Tom Eagles, ACE: I positively keep in mind that being talked about. We tried a number of variations, however it simply felt prefer it dropped you out of the story. We wished to remain the characters that you simply’re fascinated by, particularly Jaiyah, Thomas, and Tavita.
Taika did a number of improv simply in that one location and the temptation is as a result of it’s so humorous, you wish to use it. But it wound up not serving the story. Seeing the whole lot on this third-person narrator view pulled us out an excessive amount of. It was higher to make use of him to bookend the film.
But such as you say, he comes again within the center and we understand that he’s an actual character within the movie. In this biblical parable that he’s telling us are scenes of Thomas being baptized by enjoyable. Lots of people watch that and go, “I wish there was more Taika!” The proper response for me is to depart them wanting extra.
MF: Well, that was me. I want there was extra Taika, But you’re proper, it made for a greater film. The approach you introduce the character of Thomas is in considered one of my favourite scenes within the movie, what I name the “Five Stages of Grief Scene”.
With an overhead projector, they stroll him via the 5 phases of grief that he’s taking part in out as he finds out that he’s not going to have the ability to proceed working in the best way he desires to. He has to go assist this staff. It’s a really humorous scene and I simply like to find out about how you set it collectively.
Tom Eagles, ACE: That was one other scene that had a number of permutations as a result of there was a number of nice improv from everybody. But within the authentic lengthy model, we went via all 5 phases of grief in some element. It was humorous, however it held the story up an excessive amount of.
That scene was shot as a pickup initially. The story began with the Samoan staff and also you didn’t meet Thomas till he stepped off the airplane. It turned obvious that we would have liked to know a bit bit about Thomas. We did extra work on that entrance via the film, however establishing the place he’s at in his life and his profession was necessary.
MF: When I interviewed you for The Harder They Fall, we talked about how you set a web page of your handwritten notes up on social media. It was fascinating to see the way you had been considering your approach via the scene earlier than you went after it. You even have a cork board along with your scenes damaged down on it. You can bodily transfer the scenes round if you need. You use this technique to pitch completely different buildings for the movie to Taika. Tell me how and why you do this and what you get out of doing it that approach.
Tom Eagles, ACE: One of the primary issues I did once I got here in was to get the cork board going. I discover it helpful to have the ability to summary out the movie on the wall. It breaks you out of the buildings of what each scene at present is and provides you these little items of that means that may be reshaped and reordered to seek out the perfect story.
I performed round with a number of buildings for the second act. The second acts of Taika’s movies are sometimes fairly fluid. Sometimes they begin out episodic and it’s pushed by comedy, after which you could discover a solution to organize these scenes to greatest inform the story.
MF: Knowing he works that approach, what’s your strategy? Do you take a look at a scene and assume, “Regardless of what I have here, what is Taika’s intent and how do I get him there?” Or do you take a look at the fabric and see what’s the perfect performances?
Tom Eagles, ACE: That’s the place to begin. I by no means are available in going, “I’m going to have to restructure everything and rework everything.” I take a look at what’s there and assume that the script order is greatest. Then, as I am going on, I discover that there are different prospects.
Rongen’s stepdaughter Nicole (performed by Kaitlyn Dever) broke this movie open for me. She hadn’t been within the film prior. There was this wonderful scene within the second half of the film the place Rongen breaks down and tells the staff about Nicole, who died some years earlier. We wished that to be a shock however it felt prefer it got here out of nowhere. It felt like, with out some hints, Rongen was simply this racist, misogynistic homophobe. He was simply this horrible, horrible man and also you didn’t have a deal with on him.
I spotted that we had a few scenes the place he was on the telephone together with his spouse Gail (Elisabeth Moss). We may voice the character of his daughter that he’s listening to in these messages. I discussed that as a result of as soon as these got here in, they shook up the construction of the film.
Often, we might come out of battle between Rongen and Jaiyah and go to these scenes to try to propel him into some change. That change may be turning as much as apply for the primary time or coming again to apply as soon as he’s thrown a tantrum and rejoining the staff. We additionally had pickups as properly. Those are more likely to shake up the construction a bit bit.
MF: The character of Jaiyah is an actual particular person. She’s the primary non-binary participant to play in a World Cup sport. That in and of itself is worthy of a narrative. There are a few motion pictures you can have produced from this story. How did you steadiness that versus protecting the story in regards to the staff as a complete?
Tom Eagles, ACE: I listened to Jaiyah. I assumed she was a really attention-grabbing character, however essentially the most attention-grabbing relationship within the film was between her and Rongen.
When I bought in, I threw the whole lot that I may discover of her into the film. We got here again on that finally. A few issues got here out. But a part of my path was to make her nearly a secondary protagonist, somebody who issues to the movie. The movie is partly from her perspective and broadly from a Samoan perspective, in addition to from Rongen’s perspective. I leaned into her.
I additionally needed to be sure that Rongen angle in direction of her wasn’t represented because the movie’s angle in direction of her. Just little or no issues, like when he’s having his transphobic rant about My Little Pony, or slicing to a few of the different staff members displaying their distaste and mistrust of him, give the viewer a perspective that this white man’s perspective on a fa’afafine will not be the attitude of the movie. It’s not the attitude of the staff both.
On the same observe, how do you make room for an ensemble solid? The solid includes a complete soccer staff and the tight-knit group of supporters that they’ve. To give all these characters their time and house, you generally need to make sacrifices and lose nice moments or performances. Tell me the way you strategy that side of it.
Tom Eagles, ACE: That’s at all times robust with a giant ensemble like this. Oscar Kitely’s character, Tavita, was necessary. He’s the man who hires Thomas within the first place. He’s the man who has the issue of the worst soccer staff on the earth.
Nicky Salapu was additionally necessary. He is the man who missed thirty-one targets however in the end seems to be the staff’s savior. We established him simply sufficient in order that it could be a shock when he got here again into the film, however it could be satisfying and never a whole wildcard.
There had been so many good performers. It’s at all times laborious to offer everybody their due, however it’s a staff film and also you want all of these completely different characters. Semu Filipo, who performs Rambo, is a good comedic actor. A variety of them purchase their time on display by being nice performers.
MF: It is a sports activities comedy and by the legislation of sports activities comedies, you’re required to have an up-tempo coaching montage. For no matter purpose, Jesus Christ and Dolly Parton are influential figures in American Samoa. I don’t assume we ever get fairly to the underside of that within the film. But because of this, the montage is completed to the music “Nine to Five”. How is one thing like that scripted? How a lot materials are you given to create what finally ends up being a one or two-minute sequence?
Tom Eagles, ACE: The humorous factor about that’s Dolly wasn’t within the film. That was once Elvis in these image frames. It was Jesus and Elvis, who is certainly a giant character within the Pacific.
I auditioned so many tunes for each of these coaching montages. There was a magic second the place I threw “Nine to Five” on and the lyrics, “We’re just another step on the boss man’s ladder” simply occurred to be whereas they had been doing the ladder sequence. Then, “That man is out to get me” landed when Thomas is giving Jaiyah an evil look. It simply felt prefer it was meant to be. That’s what you hope for while you’re syncing music.
There was a ton of fabric shot for each montages. It was at all times meant that there could be two, however what winds up through which montage relies on what story we had been attempting to inform. The first montage is about Thomas becoming a member of the staff and the second montage is about Thomas accepting that he’s a part of the staff and the staff accepting him. The first montage is the very typical “tough cop” factor. He’s being robust on the gamers. In the second, he’s a bit bit extra a part of the household. They’re all working collectively.
MF: You caught lightning in a bottle there with the lyrics of “Nine to Five” taking part in out completely in opposition to what’s occurring with the staff. Let’s increase on that a bit bit. What is Taika’s course of for needle drops? Is he very prescriptive or does he go away it as much as you and the music supervisor solely?
Tom Eagles, ACE: On this one, he left it as much as me. There had been a number of iterations and one of many issues that bothered me was there was no Samoan music. When I got here on, I labored on the opening of the movie attempting to get this Jerome Grey tune “We Are Samoa” to play over that opening montage. It nearly seems like a nationwide anthem and it cuts fantastically, paradoxically, in opposition to them being smashed by Australia.
Then there’s the LEAO tune, “Musika Malie”, a massively coated music in Samoa and all through the Pacific. It’s a well known music, however discovering an upbeat model of that was robust. There are all these nice teams from Samoa from the ’70s and ’80s that felt like they resonated with Taika’s type, his tone.
Anytime I work with a director, I deal with them as a style. I attempt to determine what the tone of that style is. That was a part of the transient, to make the film really feel extra Taika. The music performed a giant half in that. “Everybody Wants to Rule the World” was an outdated concept that was attempting to get into Jojo Rabbit with the coaching montage in that film. It was a recycled concept that got here again later.
“Anytime I work with a director, I treat them as a genre.”
MF: Let’s speak in regards to the rating a bit bit and dealing with composer Michael Giacchino. When you’re becoming a member of a movie in progress, how does that change the best way you’re employed with a composer?
Tom Eagles, ACE: I didn’t have a ton of interplay with Michael in comparison with Jojo Rabbit, which I used to be on from starting to finish. We would exit to his studio, take heed to demos, and provides a bit suggestions. By the time I got here on this one, there was a good bit of rating achieved. The rating was working fantastically for the entire again finish of the film. I solely changed the rating generally with needle drops close to the start to offer the movie extra of a Samoan really feel. That was in all probability my solely internet impact on the rating, eradicating one thing. Sorry, Michael.
MF: I feel he’ll recover from it.
Tom Eagles, ACE: I feel he’s going to be okay.
MF: You know, you’re not the one one lively on social media. In 2019, Taika tweeted, “Happy Halloween. I’m on this nightmare hellscape of my very own creation and it’s referred to as ‘Still finishing a script three days before principal photography’. (Full tweet beneath.) How do you handle one thing like that figuring out that he’s nonetheless writing the script? You mentioned there was a number of improv on set. Does that make your job a bit extra cumbersome?
Happy Halloween I’m in a nightmare hellscape referred to as “finishing a script 3 days before principal photography” I hope you take pleasure in your dumb events u will likely be forgotten whereas I will likely be immortalised in a guide about kiwi movie makers lively between 2005 and 2020. Insert pumpkin emoji. pic.twitter.com/eBlscaCCct
— Taika Waititi (@TaikaWaititi) November 1, 2019
Tom Eagles, ACE: It can. A variety of editors get very enthusiastic about improv as a result of it’s new. You by no means noticed that line coming. It’s like opening up a field of sweets or a bit present each morning while you get your dailies. It’s very tempting to push the improv, however oftentimes you discover the scripted stuff tells the story a bit bit extra succinctly.
The problem with improv is methods to maintain the story shifting and ensure it says the issues that it’s alleged to say. Sometimes you discover there are unbelievable improvs, however they don’t go wherever. You get a terrific improv on one aspect and also you don’t have any response or response on the opposite aspect of it.
It’s like a choose-your-own-adventure novel. I begin by throwing the issues I like in a timeline and I’m then looking out for issues that may make their improv work and inform the story that must be informed.
“The challenge with improv is how to keep the story moving.”
MF: You talked about that there have been two montages. That jogged my memory of the problem of slicing motion in a sport. How tightly is the blocking of a soccer match constructed throughout manufacturing? How a lot of a problem is it in put up while you’re looking for issues that match and it simply by no means matched on the day after they shot it?
Tom Eagles, ACE: There had been beats that they tried to get after which there was a number of simply wild soccer play. Often, the important thing beat on the ball could be shot after which we needed to discover reactions or actions which may lead as much as that shot. That was the puzzle. Even going again to the apply matches, we had the important thing moments after which needed to assemble the scene round them.
MF: I’m wondering how a lot of this may be achieved digitally. When I talked to the editors of Ted Lasso, they mentioned, “Sometimes we have to put the soccer ball in digitally to make it work.” Did something like that occur right here? Or is the whole lot sensible?
Tom Eagles, ACE: Only sometimes. There are two examples that I can consider. One was a stunt the place a few gamers get hit within the head by the ball and it ricochets in a approach that you can by no means seize. That would have taken 100 takes and some head accidents to get, and some lawsuits. That one was digital.
“That would have taken a hundred takes and a few head injuries to get.”
The solely different one which was digitally assisted was the ball crawling throughout the road for the primary purpose of the ultimate match. It simply ekes throughout the road. Again, getting that proper on the day would have been laborious. They had go at it however getting the ball to roll in precisely the proper approach was digitally assisted.
MF: We spent a number of time usually speaking in regards to the openings of movies and with good purpose. That’s a giant problem for any movie. But I discovered the best way you ended this movie to be distinctive. Usually on the endings of those motion pictures, there are some tropes or cliches that come up. But I assumed what you probably did was counter to what we’ve come to count on in conventional sports activities motion pictures.
You see the tying purpose, however then we flash ahead to the son telling his father what occurred. Then flashing ahead additional into the long run to see the gamers as a lot older individuals telling the story to their youngsters or grandchildren. Instead of this very conventional, large, superb ending to the match, you do some attention-grabbing issues structure-wise in the way you inform the story. Tell me about how that each one occurred.
Tom Eagles, ACE: I can’t let you know an excessive amount of about that as a result of that wasn’t my work. The match labored properly once I got here on board. There are a few issues that simply sung, and one was the entire gameplay sequence and the opposite one was that locker room speech that I used to be speaking about.
My function was to return and earn all of that. I had to verify the primary half of the film delivered. But kudos to Taika and the entire modifying staff who got here earlier than me for piecing that ending collectively. It actually labored. And when one thing works, go away it alone. If it ain’t broke don’t repair it.
MF: You as soon as in contrast Jeymes Samuel to Quentin Tarantino. You mentioned they had been each “black belt-level cinema nerds”. How does Taika examine with that? Is he large on giving reference factors for his motion pictures? Or does he say, “This is the material that I’ve written. This is where we’re staying and this is the story I’m trying to tell.”
Tom Eagles, ACE: He’s a big-time cinema nerd. He is aware of about completely different pockets of cinema that I do know nothing about, like Korean cinema. There wasn’t a number of speak about references. There had been sports activities film references for this movie, however I didn’t wish to make a typical sports activities film. If something, I used to be attempting to make a extra emotional film. There wasn’t a lot learning of different movies.
“I didn’t want to make a typical sports movie.”
Also, as a result of I used to be simply coming in for a go, I had a reasonably transient period of time. I wasn’t attempting to dig into the entire permutations of what a sports activities film might be. As a sports activities film, it was already working. It was the emotional story that I used to be doing extra lifting on.
MF: You mentioned that it was working as a sports activities film, however you even have to verify it’s working as a comedy and as an emotional story. Were you conscious of any suggestions from audiences that noticed the screenings?
Tom Eagles, ACE: I’m undecided how a lot I can speak about viewers scores and stuff like that, however it positively bumped up after we discovered the emotional spine of the movie. It helped after we gave Thomas some dimension and wrote in these messages from his daughter. The movie appeared to carry.
I’m not large on scores, however I’m large on sitting within the room with an viewers. You can really feel it when it’s working and never working. With a comedy, it’s simple. They snort or they don’t snort. But in case you’re fortunate, you get a number of gasps out of a narrative reveal. But if not, you’ll be able to nonetheless really feel whether or not it’s touchdown or not. The suggestions was good. It was stay within the room and within the second.
MF: What is the origin story of you and Taika? If you’re sport, I’d love to listen to it.
Tom Eagles, ACE: The first time I met Taika, he was in my home. He was sleeping on my sofa. It was in these days of unfastened, wild partying. He was a dude who, in his early days, was making a number of motion pictures and doing his comedy and sleeping on a number of couches. Lots of people in all probability have that story.
I bought to know him via my spouse, Danielle, who’s a make-up and hair designer on a bunch of his motion pictures from Boy via Jojo Rabbit. I met him whereas they had been working collectively on Boy. They had been hanging out round the home whereas they had been prepping that film. I wound up doing trailers for that film, going to some screenings of it, and giving some notes. That was the primary contact.
MF: Is there something that’s modified in the best way you and Taika work over these previous ten years?
Tom Eagles, ACE: We in all probability speak much less nowadays. I do know his tone, which isn’t to say that it doesn’t swap up with each film and evolve and develop, however it’s pretty shorthand nowadays.
The greatest solution to do it’s to only attempt issues. I present him stuff and it sticks or it doesn’t, however there’s not a lot strategizing earlier than we go into one thing. It’s very a lot, “Do you like it?” “Yes.” or “No, let’s try again.”
MF: I really feel like each venture you do, it’s best to stroll away studying one thing. Was there something you’re taking away from doing Next Goal Wins? What did you be taught on this venture?
Tom Eagles, ACE: Man, I don’t know. I suppose I realized that American Samoa is a territory of the United States. I don’t know.
MF: The American half didn’t tip you off?
Tom Eagles, ACE: I didn’t know what it was! I didn’t know if it was a state or not. It’s like Puerto Rico, proper? I’m struggling to consider what I realized.
MF: I don’t assume we wish to flip this right into a geography lesson. I don’t assume both of us would do very properly.
Tom Eagles, ACE: No!
