Witches Witches, the sophomore characteristic from English filmmaker Elizabeth Sankey, poses an fascinating speculation in regards to the hyperlink between the English witch trials and maternal psychological well being. Sankey illustrates this correlation by using filmic portrayals of sorceresses (from Häxan to The Craft) and “psychotic women” (from Rosemary’s Baby to Unsane), their historic accuracy and cultural relevance buttressed by perception from docs, historians and those that’ve been recognized with postpartum psychological diseases.
Sankey is completely poised to sort out the subject on condition that she spent a number of months in a mom and child psychiatric unit after experiencing extreme postpartum nervousness and melancholy that made her a menace to her and her son’s security. During her restoration, she mirrored on how society has traditionally maligned ladies who don’t conform to good beliefs of femininity and motherhood—oft-cast as “witches”—and why the load of this obvious failure has formed ensuing stigmas round ladies’s psychiatric therapy. Sankey seems in on display screen testimonies and supplies clever narration all through the movie, conveying the inextricable private lens of a movie that additionally manages to unpack the overarching legacy of “monstrous” ladies.
I spoke with Sankey by way of Zoom forward of her movie’s Tribeca Festival premiere. Below, the filmmaker discusses her lifelong affinity for witches, culling clips from over 250 movies and dealing along with her husband, Jeremy Warmsley, on the unique rating. Witches will launch by way of MUBI, which additionally produced it, in 2025.
Filmmaker: When do you know that you simply needed to make a movie about your expertise with postpartum nervousness, and the way did integrating horror movies change into an important a part of that idea?
Sankey: I had been within the psychiatric ward with my child for eight weeks, and I acquired out in October or November. I had solely been out for a few month, and I believed, “I’ve got to make something about this,” simply as a manner of processing what had occurred. I used to be going to do an essay movie, which is what I did with my first movie, Romantic Comedy. I’ve at all times needed to do one thing about witches. I felt quite a lot of affinity with witches throughout my sickness and afterwards as a result of I used to be actually struggling to make peace with the ideas that I had and the individual that I’d been. I discovered quite a lot of security in narratives of witches, these ladies which are mad, unusual and peculiar. That actually resonated with me, so it simply appeared to make sense. When I began the movie, I used to be nonetheless very a lot mad and in restoration, so it’s bizarre watching it now.
The horror movie side began as a result of I needed to have a boundary on what I might use by way of movie clips. Then the extra I researched the historical past of those psychological diseases, the extra I spotted that there was really this actually stunning, sturdy hyperlink between witches, maternal psychological well being and girls’s psychological well being on the whole. With the horror movies, I used to be attempting as an instance what it was wish to lose my thoughts. When it was taking place, it did really feel very cinematic. The solely references I had [for that experience] have been horror movies, and it felt like actuality had simply kind of damaged aside. I believed that was an amazing-slash-terrifying alternative to attempt to depict that as a filmmaker. As we are saying within the movie, a number of of us felt like we have been in horror movies.
I additionally discovered that I used to be drawn to movies from the ’60s and ’70s. They’re much more on the nostril, however weirdly that’s really the way it felt. It didn’t really feel delicate and darkish, it felt extremely intense and saturated.
Filmmaker: As you mentioned only a minute in the past, you beforehand directed and edited Romantic Comedy, and I ponder how the method of culling scenes from movies was related or totally different this time round?
Sankey: I assume the method was related, however what I used to be in search of was very totally different. With Romantic Comedy, I used to be in search of romantic comedies all through the ages, way back to I might go—for bizarre ones, unusual ones, humorous ones, classics, good examples. Whereas with this, I used to be movies that depicted a facet of psychological sickness for girls on the whole. I had a large listing of movies. I acquired maintain of them, then I’d simply watch and lower clips from them. I’ve these massive folders on Premiere that simply say issues like “woman crying,” “psychiatric ward,” “hospitals,” “witch.” There have been additionally extra summary issues, as effectively, like “fire,” “moon,” “sea” — something that may very well be visually arresting as a metaphor. I actually beloved the method as a result of I used to be watching quite a lot of movies that I hadn’t seen earlier than and was discovering these threads in these movies that have been completely wonderful. There’s one referred to as The Snake Pit, which I hadn’t seen and I believe is from the ’40s. It’s a few lady going right into a psychiatric ward. It was fascinating to see what a psychiatric ward was like at the moment and likewise how little has modified. A whole lot of it’s simply her inner monologue, you realize, “Why am I here? How long have I been here?” Because time strikes very unusually there. I used to be simply in search of something that helped depict what I had been going by way of.
Filmmaker: When precisely did you start to really feel that the historic legacy of witches, not simply their filmic depictions, was one thing that resonated together with your story?
Sankey: It’s arduous for me to recollect as a result of quite a lot of issues have been taking place. As I say, I used to be mad at that time—I imply, I nonetheless am mad—however I believe I used to be actually eager to discover a particular hyperlink between maternal psychological well being sickness, feminine psychological well being sickness and witch trials. I knew that there was a hyperlink between witches and the way in which that ladies have been depicted in cinema, however I didn’t know that there was essentially a historic hyperlink. I additionally had this factor after I was sick the place I felt very very similar to there have been two variations of me, a very good model and a foul model. It was one thing that me and my husband talked about very explicitly, like, “Oh, that bad one’s back. I hate that.” Again, that was one thing that I knew from common tradition of ladies being portrayed as dangerous or good, and typically fairly actually. Then I began studying the testimonies of ladies that had been on trial. These ladies are speaking and you realize precisely what they’re speaking about. You felt the identical factor. I’ve a really massive Google Doc the place I put all the pieces, all of my notes and stuff, and there are exclamation marks throughout it the place I used to be simply considering, “Oh my God, I had the exact same thought as this woman did in 1640.” I spotted that this has been taking place endlessly and that there was a really distinct knock-on impact.
I might discuss that for days. I imply, in America, you might have been so massively affected by it to a really damaging diploma. It’s barely higher in England, however not that a lot better. But what’s occurred to ladies in America is unbelievable.
Filmmaker: The distinction between England and America is one thing I used to be positively excited about whereas watching the movie. But to return and handle one thing that I actually took away from the movie is your speculation about how postpartum psychological well being points might have had an unlimited impact on the witch trials. I couldn’t imagine that wasn’t a principle I’d heard of earlier than. You hear about moldy bread, however was there quite a lot of writing or scholarship on this that you simply seemed to?
Sankey: There was a reformed witchfinder within the sixteenth century. There’s one case the place he realized that this lady was saying that she was a witch when he knew that she wasn’t. He might inform that she was having a horrible time mentally. He wrote about it and this case really stopped him from persevering with his work of searching down witches. People simply didn’t actually give it some thought like that, particularly as a result of there was some huge cash to be produced from catching “witches.” They have been additionally rounding up ladies who have been healers and midwives on the whole, who you’ll have as soon as been capable of discuss to about these ideas and emotions you’re having.
Also I believe most individuals who’ve diseases as extreme as mine, who find yourself in psychiatric wards, should not within the place to speak, write or make movies about it. I imply, there have clearly been wonderful books written about these items, however I believe that connection hadn’t fairly been made earlier than.
It was humorous speaking to Marion [Gibson], who’s a historian within the movie. I used to be on the cellphone to her and mentioned, “There seem to be these women who are confessing. Is that a voluntary confession?” She mentioned, “No women were tortured, so every single woman who confessed in England confessed voluntarily. We don’t know why.” I used to be like, “I know why!” I don’t assume it’s truthful to say that each single lady that did that had psychological well being points, however simply a lot of what you learn is ladies feeling actually ashamed, responsible and dangerous about themselves. Feeling a lot stress. We assume again then as being a really puritanical society, however I’d say it’s simply as puritanical now. It’s simply that puritanism has been dressed up differently. You know, it’s the wellness business, the weight loss plan business, these pressures nonetheless exist. The truth that ladies’s rights are being taken away by way of their very own our bodies, all of these things remains to be taking place.
Filmmaker: Speaking of the ladies who seem in your movie, how did you persuade them, a lot of whom have by no means publicly spoken about their experiences, to inform their story on digital camera?
Sankey: Dr. Trudi [Seneviratne] reveals one thing that occurred to her that she’d by no means revealed earlier than. She informed me about that on the cellphone, and I mentioned, “Look, you don’t need to talk about this in film. This is just you and me having this conversation.” But I believe she was prepared to speak about it. I simply couldn’t imagine that somebody in her place—such an eminent psychiatrist herself, somebody who has handled ladies with these psychological diseases for a complete profession, has raised a lot cash, works with Princess Kate Middleton, is likely one of the most distinguished spokespeople for maternal psychological well being sickness—had a lot disgrace and guilt and didn’t wish to should acknowledge it herself. A whole lot of the opposite [subjects] have been those who I knew or had met throughout my sickness they usually have been very eager to speak about it. David Emson was the one one who wasn’t certain at first. I spotted that he lived actually near me, so I wrote him a letter. I believe when he learn the primary few sentences, he was like, “Oh my God, no, I’m not doing this. I’m not talking about this again.” Then by the top of the letter, he was like, “Okay, let’s do it.” He was good and fantastic. But I believe the truth that I used to be coming at it from having had this expertise, all of us did really feel very shut to one another. There was no reticence. Everyone’s seen the movie, everybody’s watched their components. Again, all through the entire course of, I mentioned, “Look, if at the end of the line you’re like, ‘Don’t even put me in it,’ that’s fine.’”
Filmmaker: A bit extra on the formal aspect, I like the units the place you filmed the interview segments. How did you visualize, construct and remodel these units all through the venture?
Sankey: I beloved these units a lot. I knew I used to be going to be doing filmed interviews, and I needed to do them in a spot that felt a bit particular. I needed the movie to look a bit like a spell e-book, so I used to be excited about totally different facets of witch tradition, each in cinema and in real-life. The form of the units relies on the room that I had on the ward. It went from this actually scary place, probably the most terrifying place on the planet, to someplace that I actually didn’t wish to depart. I felt very snug there and made it my very own. It was a very particular room to me. I believe that we initially had 5 units, then we realized we weren’t going to have the ability to do this many, so we then introduced it down. My manufacturing designer, May Davies, did all of it with simply her and two different folks. She’s completely unbelievable. The thought was that one [set] is a disturbing hospital room, the way in which that it felt after I walked in. Another one was the “teen witch” room; I needed to be Sabrina after I grew up, having a bed room like that was my dream. The final one is the witch cottage, which I believe is definitely in all probability my favourite of the three. At the top, I got here to this place of acceptance of the witch, the darkness, inside me. The complete strategy of the movie was for me to simply accept that this did occur to me. I did have these ideas, I did have that darkness, rage and insanity.
Filmmaker: Is it proper that your husband Jeremy did the music for this movie?
Sankey: Yes, he did!
Filmmaker: I do know you’re a musician in your personal proper, however how did he come on board and what was it like collaborating with him?
Sankey: It’s very sort of you to name me a musician. I actually don’t consider myself as one. I consider myself as a singer who simply kind of latched on to him [laughs]. Jeremy is unbelievable. He can play each single instrument, aside from the banjo, however he insists on having a banjo anyway. We preserve the banjo within the attic as a result of I don’t wish to have him strolling round the home taking part in the banjo at me [laughs]. But yeah, he’s extremely proficient. He’s carried out composer work for a really very long time now. It simply made sense and we actually love working collectively. He really additionally co-produced the movie with my different producers, Manon [Ardisson] and Chiara [Ventura], so it was at all times going to be him doing the rating. We have been capable of have a very good dialogue about it. I used to be like, “You have to read loads of stuff about witches, witchcraft and the culture,” and he did. Quite shortly, we realized that the feminine voice was gonna be a very essential theme. He recorded with some wonderful singers in London and composed this glorious bit. It got here collectively actually shortly, to be sincere. We’ve been in a band [called Summer Camp] for therefore lengthy now that we all know the best way to talk very well collectively. And he’s very proficient, thank God [laughs]. Imagine if he wasn’t!
Filmmaker: I do know that you simply mentioned that everyone within the movie has seen their components already, however have you ever proven it to family and friends but? If you might have, what has their response been?
Sankey: I haven’t, really. I believe they’re gonna come and see it after we present in some unspecified time in the future in London, perhaps. My mother-in-law goes to be in New York with us [during the Tribeca premiere], and he or she mentioned she doesn’t wish to see it in the intervening time. I believe that’s fantastic, she needs to observe it in her personal time. Friends haven’t seen it, both. We confirmed it to some folks actually early on after we had the edit, simply to get suggestions, and other people have been actually beautiful about it. Lots of people have despatched me images of themselves crying, which is humorous, as a result of I don’t actually need anybody to have a foul time watching the movie. I really am fairly a enjoyable individual! It’s sort of bizarre when folks do have sturdy reactions to it, as a result of I now not have a giant, sturdy response to that point in my life.
Filmmaker: Another essential side of the movie is, clearly, your relationship together with your son. What do you hope that his relationship with this movie and your story is as he matures and will get to know your background a little bit bit extra?
Sankey: That was one thing that we thought of so much. There was some extent within the course of the place I wasn’t as specific within the movie as I’m now in regards to the ideas that I had in direction of my son. It mainly took my producers saying, “Look, if you’re going to go there, you have to go there.” I knew that that was true, however I used to be attempting to guard myself and likewise him. I don’t know if my son’s ever going to observe it, as a result of I’m his mother and I’m already so annoying to him, so I can’t think about that he’ll be jazzed to observe it [laughs]. But we discuss it so much. We discuss me being in a hospital and him being there with me. We’ve been again to the unit the place I used to be. I believe for me, it’s at all times about honesty and openness. It mainly is like, I’ve been the worst mother ever. That’s how I really feel. I’ve thought in regards to the worst issues. Anything higher than that’s good. At the identical time, I wish to be sure that is the one interval in his life the place he ever, from my actions, feels something like that. Even although he wasn’t conscious of it taking place, I actually need that to be the one time the place he’s in a scenario the place he’s doubtlessly unsafe with me. It’s bizarre, as a result of on one hand, I don’t give a fuck anymore. I let him eat sugar, he can do no matter he needs so long as he’s joyful. He’s my child, it’s fantastic. On the opposite hand, I’m going to be sure that he at all times has a possibility to speak about his psychological well being, that he’s emotionally in a really protected place with us, that he by no means feels something destructive in regards to the setting through which he grows up. I don’t know if I’d have been like that if this hadn’t occurred. I believe I’d have been a distinct guardian.
Filmmaker: Is working with footage on this manner one thing that may proceed to curiosity you and affect your filmmaking, or is there the rest you’re seeking to sort out sooner or later?
Sankey: I do love working with archival footage, however I’m so eager to make a story movie, however in all probability one based mostly on a world or expertise that I do know very well. I like the analysis and growth course of. I do have a number of movies that I’m excited about doubtlessly making, however I additionally love docs and I’d like to do one other. But I believe with docs, it’s a must to anticipate one thing to be adequate so that you can spend that period of time on. I didn’t actually watch that many docs rising up, I at all times watched fiction motion pictures, in order that’s what I wanna do subsequent.
Filmmaker: You can positively inform that you’ve got an encyclopedic information of movie and an appreciation for narrative on the whole. Out of curiosity, what number of hours did you spend enhancing Witches?
Sankey: I don’t know the quantity. There’s positively over 100 movies [sampled], and I edited much more than that. Hang on, are you aware what? I can discover out for you. So, I edited or checked out about 250 movies. I watched all of them after which started chopping on the similar time, clipping bits out. It’s like three hours to do this, so multiply that by 250. It was staggering, it was like three years. I simply actually love doing it. As you’re doing it, you’re realizing issues. It was an exquisite, therapeutic area to spend time in whereas I used to be recovering, to be surrounded by these ladies who have been loopy, didn’t slot in and that society had kind of solid apart. I cried so much at my desk. I felt like I used to be making my very own scrapbook of the sort of lady I needed to be transferring ahead, or who I needed to be, by way of motherhood and likewise my very own existence. It was actually, actually therapeutic, really.
