Alex Ferrari 0:17
I’d prefer to welcome to the present Pen Densham. How you doing my good friend?
Pen Densham 3:57
I’m doing nice, Alex, good to be chatting with you once more.
Alex Ferrari 3:59
Yes, I do know, we met at an exquisite mixer the opposite day. And we hit it off. And I’m like we have now to be on the present. And, and you’ve got written a few of my favourite films and produce a few of my favourite films of all time. And I’ll get to all of these in a minute. But earlier than we even get began, how did you get into this enterprise?
Pen Densham 4:18
Oh, effectively, I used to be born into it. My people are making brief movies after I was somewhat child. And so I’m 4 years outdated, and I’m writing an alligator in a film that my people are making about individuals who preserve unusual pets, relationship myself. That film truly went out with Africa Queen into the film theaters. So I noticed my mother and pa with cameras and the ability of cameras. And since that point simply yearned to inform tales and have that however I name it casting a spell. You’re you are doing one thing that is extraordinary persons are all drawn to it. And I do not assume they’d babysitters again then as a result of they could not afford them. So they took Meet a Water Street. So I’m 4 years outdated, assembly the folks which can be distributing their films, and sitting within the theater with them, watching them with them. And from that point on, I simply yearned actually yearn to be concerned. And then my mother died after I was eight. My father’s conduct was not as supportive, he married a really troublesome woman, and a 15. I left college with a watch love cameras, however my college was attempting to punish me out of being imaginative and helped me by getting me a job as a financial institution clerk or one thing. And my stepmother and my father, have been doing the identical factor. And it’s totally damaging, to your sense of self price, and your holistic, the way in which your thoughts works when you’re a inventive individual, to have folks banging on you to being egotistical or troublesome. And so, it, it left me with a deep sense of attempting to guard different folks’s creativity. And, and in addition, it gave me loads of understanding about creativity and vulnerability, which I feel individuals who have very complicated imaginative minds are additionally weak to loads of self doubt. And so we have been speaking a bit about why I wrote a guide on screenplay writing, it was that I could not discover a guide that reassured me, after I was beginning to write screenplays means again, that I used to be regular, that this course of was not perfection, you sit down to put in writing from A to Z, or it’s a must to have each plot beat and each construction, I realized that after I let myself go, typically I’d have the final strains of a film in my head that had been in my mind for 2 years, figuring out I used to be going to put in writing it, get the final strains that make me cry, after which pursue getting the remainder of the film. And it is illogical. And then typically we have now what we name the islands of sanity, which you get two or three items in a film. And you already know, it’s a must to write the remaining. And it isn’t about writing to suit someone’s perception system or some structure, nevertheless it’s how do you get that voice out of you. And I feel when you get that voice out of you, you write to a distinct efficiency stage. And additionally you shield your work for longer, you combat longer to attempt to make it extra approachable for a purchaser. And so you do not quit on it. Whereas when you write one thing to hit a formulation, oh, horror films are promoting or ROM coms are promoting, proper one, nevertheless it’s not in your nature. When the folks that you simply’re attempting to promote it to surrender on you, you quit too. Whereas I’ve scripts that I’ve fought from era to get made. I am unable to quit on them, as a result of they’re by some means in my soul, which sounds loopy. But
Alex Ferrari 7:44
it would not sound loopy in any respect. Wait, effectively, to begin with, I at all times inform folks, we’re all loopy to be on this enterprise. We are we’re all carnies. We are all all of us ran away to hitch the circus we’re is not that is not {that a} good analogy, all of us are at present, probably the most distinctive folks ever you meet on this enterprise, they’re all somewhat bit loopy. You know, we simply placed on a present. And if you wish to get an entire, you already know, excellent analogy is, if you’re making a film, you go to a location, you set up your tent, you shoot for the day, you placed on a present, you file the present, you set it down and you progress on to the subsequent location. That’s a carny.
Pen Densham 8:23
That’s fascinating. I liken it barely in a different way. But I nonetheless assume that is an extremely legitimate means of taking a look at it. I, I take a look at it, as a result of I’ve tried to determine the way to overcome the struggling of it. Because the way in which I checked out it’s, it is like a sport, and I completely love taking part in it. And the game I feel it’s, is American soccer. Because I get hit, I’ve to place a group collectively. I haven’t got to like all people in that group, however I’ve to encourage them. I’m going to have the ball stripped from me, I’m going to sit down within the bench typically. But if I get to play and I find it irresistible sufficient, it makes it worthwhile.
Alex Ferrari 8:58
And you then get your begin within the enterprise as a screenwriter right?
Pen Densham 9:02
Not fairly No, truly. My my. I do not like speaking about my mail an excessive amount of so however left college at 15 tried to begin my very own companies in England, fled to Canada at 19 pondering I used to be a washed up failure ended up in a tradition the place younger folks have been being helped to make films. And I’m going Holy crow. And I’m watching a 15 yr outdated man making a six sound 16 mil film. And as a result of I’ve been attempting to promote issues in England, I used to be capable of assist him promote his film to the to the TV community. And began to see in Canada, there was an trade of concepts from younger filmmakers. And we have been making brief movies. We have been studying from one another promoting to the world markets and the colleges and libraries, which was a market again then. And in some methods I see this parallel taking place in the way in which that the enterprise is now aggregating once more, many various avenues of alternative. And so we tried labored with a few corporations. When together with launched me to Marshall McLuhan, who’s the guru of Communications at that time on this planet, and that sense of free pondering and the sense of beginning one thing, since you cared about it, and pursuing it till he put all the cash collectively, and all of the items collectively entrepreneurial aspect, was educated into making brief movies, at some extent the place we, we additionally realized, when you do not enter, you do not win awards. And when you do not win awards, folks do not know the way to choose your films. So award profitable grew to become one thing we pursued. And we ended up profitable over 60 Awards received medals from the queen, nevertheless it’s bullshit. Because when you do not see it, it would not occur. And we made this one movie, which was vitally essential emotionally to me, which is the place we requested youngsters to direct commercials for all times as in the event that they have been promoting. And I needed to make a film about younger folks’s imaginations in a means of defending the punishment that I’ve gone by and saying, These persons are extremely priceless it doesn’t matter what age they’re, their imaginations of significant and highly effective issues. So by doing this, we received a film that we ended up with 9 younger folks every directed their very own industrial for all times with actual actors, actual crews, and we managed to get it nominated for an Oscar. And we we i might additionally realized being a huckster being a carny that I’d seen different mates of mine in Canada get sometimes nominated for an Oscar, and wait to see in the event that they gained, and went to the Oscars did not win and got here residence and nobody knew what had occurred. So I mentioned, Okay, bucket, we will put each ounce of effort into ensuring all people is aware of that this nomination occurred. And so we have been on the entrance web page of each newspaper, we had a movie crew fly with us to Canada, from Canada, to the Oscars, we received permission with the federal government’s assist to take all 9 youngsters to the Oscar ceremony, and you know the way exhausting it’s to get tickets. And the top outcome was that once we misplaced, there was solely three films in that yr, however one was a part of the LA Philharmonic. So the we have been on the entrance web page of each newspaper in Canada. And we have been on the nightly information Palooza. And that put our firm on the map, which once more, gave us the chance to exit and beg for extra funds to go do movies that we cared about.
Alex Ferrari 12:22
That’s wonderful. And it is one thing that they do not train this that precisely what you probably did is you get a possibility like this, whether or not it is an Oscar nomination as a brief movie, Sundance, a giant occasion, a giant information article, one thing that you simply leverage it, and also you and also you attempt to use it to push your your your self and your organization or your film additional alongside. And filmmakers aren’t taught this I yell at this about this on the prime of my
Pen Densham 12:48
writing a guide about this, proper?
Alex Ferrari 12:50
Yeah, my my new guide, Rise of the movie shoprunner talks about that, in addition to many different methods of making income streams and so forth. But one factor I needed to speak to you earlier than, earlier than I ask you another questions I’ve for you, the entire world of distribution is altering so dramatically. And you already know, you we have been speaking OFF AIR about this entire distributor factor and you already know, and all of the press that I’ve been getting, and never solely me, however all these 1000s of filmmakers who’ve been been damage by you already know, the downfall of this movie aggregator, and the way that many ways in which the system is rigged towards, particularly on the on the low indie stage, the system is rigged towards impartial filmmakers so far as distribution is anxious. How do you see issues going ahead? I imply, we we sort of touched upon it somewhat bit. But there’s going to be a change, look, look, Netflix got here alongside and actually modified the complete trade. You know, this little, little firm that will might have been bought for 50 million bucks by blockbuster again in 2000. And I feel two or three and now it is price 150 billion. And it is modified not solely the trade however modified how we view our viewing habits, how we the idea of bingeing the idea, all of the you already know, it is modified the world. That’s there’s nonetheless going to be extra modifications coming in, I feel they’ll come quicker than we even anticipate for impartial movies and for for creators, what do you assume the longer term is in distribution?
Pen Densham 14:14
Well, you already know, it is, it is the Gold Rush, no person is aware of the place the veins are, nobody is aware of how you are going to chill them out. It’s a inventive entrepreneurism, which I at all times name that course of that you should spend as a lot effort promoting your materials to folks as you utilize to create it. And I name it additionally constructing a bridge backwards, which is you possibly can’t anticipate that your purchaser understands what you’ve got received. If you make them take the time of attempting to categorize what you’ve got received, you lose since you’re doing one thing the place they’ve too distracted and do not perceive it. So I break promoting down into 4 element parts which I’m now going to provide you my two minute lecture on the way to promote please. First rule is determine your purchaser as a result of nobody buys from a stranger analysis them after which attain out to them and discover compatibility Because you are not going to promote to somebody until they, they really feel that you simply perceive them somewhat bit. So you already know that they have been the people who did that individual film that was profitable and also you reward them real. Everything is about authenticity. Because folks have a giant bullshit detector, you possibly can’t, and you have hustle in your brow, you possibly can’t hustle folks, after they do not feel so good a actuality. Yes, there’s, there is a good ardour. So anyway, so that you analysis your purchaser, you create a rapport together with your purchaser by assembly with them and speaking about issues that they worth. Second one is display ardour, as a result of why ought to they care when you do not? So you are taking you are taking an concept. And I inform my I taught a few instances at USC movie college. And I’d say you may be virtually inarticulate when you display ardour, as a result of the thrill is contagious. And when you have received one thing and it is chilly blooded, and you do not actually care, and it is a advertising and marketing machine, you are not going to get me believing that you will undergo brick partitions to realize it. So by demonstrating ardour, what you are doing is getting the that that is the basis stem of my perception methods that I’m investing on this factor. And it is extra prone to get folks to assist you. And if you’re doing a film with someone, if it is a improvement deal, they’re placing their job on the road somewhat bit with you. And so actually a pitch is an opportunity to have a dialog with someone, and never an opportunity to say okay, I’ve received 47.2 minutes, and I’ve to provide you a to z of a of a construction, as a result of that leaving them out that then I take advantage of an indication, I say that my spouse had a dream. And it was so scary. She stayed up nights. And then she instructed me the dream. It appears scary. It was preserving me up. But I made a decision to show it right into a film, which is my ardour assertion is a completely illusory one, nevertheless it’s useful. And then I say that film, which is what I name the goalposts is kind of like midway between the exorcist and alien. Now the explanation I take advantage of that time period, earlier than I describe what the film is, is that I’ve made a relationship with the customer. I’m demonstrating ardour. And I’ve instructed them that I’m going to indicate them what this film is when it comes to the issues that they want. Because promoting a film is actually filling the necessity of the customer, not your concept of getting them to purchase you, however what you are attempting to promote them that you simply present an answer to their objectives, which is a pleasant say this film is midway between the actor system alien. Now what developed actual would not prefer to have a kind of in there. And so what I’ve performed is I put two goalposts and ease, I do not say it is midway just like the X is the alien and received a recreation of thrones, since you screw up there, keep in mind, and so, hopefully, between the Xs and the alien, and so they would possibly give them my pitch. And I say this film is a few defrocked alcoholic priest who’s taken to the moon by NASA, as a result of they discovered the satan’s bones up there, and persons are turning into possessed. And I might promote that. And I simply use it as a pitch module. But what what I’m actually attempting to display is that individuals will ship me scripts or concepts each day, I get dozens of emails, and I’ve received a film that is a horror film and horror films of promoting. I’ve little interest in you have not you do not know that I did Houdini Moll, Flanders Robin Hood. And that I’ve received a an curiosity in physicalized in historic characters, and that I’m concerned with making altruistic care heroes out of issues. You don’t know who I’m or what I’m, what I’m. And so since you did not analysis me, you are not going to the touch my coronary heart. And when you ship me an electronic mail, and also you say mall, Flanders, my spouse and I crave once we noticed that film, we love seeing Houdini, which you probably did. And we questioned if this undertaking would have an attraction to you, that modifications the entire dynamic. And so I additionally see folks attempting to promote their work. And they’re going to say, Oh, this bought within the film theaters this weekend, and I received one identical to it. And you go, oh my god, I guess you you’ve got already despatched that out to a whole lot of individuals and why would I care?
Alex Ferrari 18:59
Can’t can we are able to we? can we are able to we I simply wish to for everybody listening proper now. I would like to simply I would like this to be put on the market into the universe. I’ve mentioned it earlier than. But I wish to say it another time. If you are making a pitch, and you make a horror film, don’t use Blair Witch Project within the paranormal exercise as examples of how way more cash your film could make. Is {that a} truthful assertion to say? Well, it is
Pen Densham 19:22
it is a truthful assertion, as a result of these are so excessive that they are unlikely to be taken severely. But if you’ll find a few movies which can be actually stable, sure, in nice lengths into the market, and have gotten a similarity of relationship, there’s two goalposts issues. But additionally what you are taking a look at is the customer is the button. The most patrons do not wish to do precisely the identical factor twice. There’s no stimulus. If you go to a director and also you say, hey, you probably did The Blair Witch. Well, I’ve received this different shaky digicam film about folks,
Alex Ferrari 19:51
however I’m not a witch, a witch, you
Pen Densham 19:53
know, whereas when you check out them very severely, and also you research them somewhat bit, you say, you already know, I observed you probably did this. In this with this problem you, would this be thrilling, and also you’re actually wanting on the subsequent stepping stone. And actors are additionally excited to become involved with issues that problem their expertise. They prefer to be somewhat scared. And so when you received a you already know, it is like going to Costco and saying, hey, you simply did Robin, how would you love to do? Will you inform? He’s gonna say no, no, not at your thoughts. But if you like play a number of the investigative john f kennedy loss of life Yeah. Because that is fascinating. And your objective is the artist entrepreneur attempting to promote your work is to attempt to see the patrons and there is loads of patrons on the market, you already know, we usually must have you ever come at us by an agent or a supervisor or a lawyer, these are the three routes. But you may also go in by doubtlessly a professor of college, USC or someone who would, who would add you add their title to you as an advocate. And I counsel to folks going after the actors, or administrators or producers with their very own corporations, and keep away from the studio, as a result of they do not have a system to have interaction folks like us, the extra freebooters. But the administrators or the actors, they’ve folks wanting each day for issues that may stimulate their biases. And so you do not appear like you are coming from a immediate proforma place, you are coming from a spot of discovery for them. And if you are able to do that, you then’ve received a superb probability of breaking by the system and really getting seen, however you bought to analysis your purchaser, you bought to even make mates with the assistant, loads of us neglect that we’re coping with human beings, and it is human beings, to human beings that may show you how to. And by taking the time in a gathering, when you are going to meet the boss, take the time to say good day to the assistant get them quantity, and observe them up afterwards and say, you already know, is there something I might be taught from what I went down and when can be a superb time to speak to you about and also you notice, once more, assistants are on each cellphone name. They they monitor the progress. And additionally they scuttle that with one another about what their studio is in search of what their boss is in search of. And loads of the time the scholars the the help in a construction are folks attempting to rise up by the system identical to you might be. And by by taking once more, trustworthy curiosity in them and asking to their expertise that can assist you get to your objectives. You create friendship. And as they as they go to their ranges of alternative. And I’ve seen a direct a good friend of mine ended up being represented by the assistant to the to the agent he was with, it was with a giant agent who by no means had any time for it. And instantly the assistant will get promoted to agent. And she’s solely received three shoppers. So instantly, he is gone from being ignored to being somebody that they are attempting to push. And now she’s the pinnacle of lit for a serious company. So once more, this this technique of inventive entrepreneur ism is taking a look at alternative and looking for it not being scared to search for methods to get your self to the entrance. And I additionally imagine there are methods for reinforcing your self similar to I name it story midwives. But there are secure folks that you simply belief, who will let you know the reality in a sort means. And you have to expose your work to folks there earlier than you expose it to the Philistines the online, the naysayers, the troublesome ones, as a result of they will cross examine all of the issues so that you simply get it actually proper. And may be reassured that if you exit to the opposite purchaser that you have gotten a lot of the questions answered, otherwise you’ve received a lot of the materials clear, so that individuals perceive it. And we name that asshole proofing. So we do not ship a script out till it is actually clear that we have a lot of the objections and the issues which can be exhausting to grasp out of it. Because you aren’t getting to learn. And when you put a yr of your life right into a script or longer, and you have issues that individuals did not perceive in it, it is it is like falling within the water of a stepping stone and you already know, you are going massive, massive factor after which and you then’re moist for the remainder of the script if the remaining risk. Whereas when you repair these issues, you’ve got received a script that is stable, and your pals have reassured you that it is sensible. And you then put it out to the world, however you by no means put it out till you’ve got received it. Because all that effort deserves that. That sort of sense of worth in your individual.
Alex Ferrari 24:23
Now you’ve got spent you’ve got mentioned it a pair instances inventive entrepreneurship, which I name movie intrapreneurship which is, which is similar actual factor. I actually imagine that sooner or later, the movie entrepreneur goes to be the one means impartial movies, impartial filmmakers can actually make a dwelling is being an entrepreneurial filmmaker, entrepreneurial, inventive, and that goes with screenwriting that goes with filmmaking. Do you agree? Do you assume that as a result of the as a result of the alternatives, I imply, you come from a time you already know within the early 90s and earlier than however like particularly within the 90s there have been there have been loads of gates Lot of gatekeepers, there was solely a handful of locations you possibly can go together with a undertaking. And, and out of that you simply have been like, actually, you have been caught within the actually impartial world, the place and once more, even there, there weren’t loads of retailers. Now, the gates have been flown open. The massive boys nonetheless have gatekeepers, however there’s so many different locations that may settle for your your, your artwork, your your tasks, your writing, that the there’s a lot alternative, that when you’re not entrepreneurial about going after these alternatives, after which monetizing these alternatives, as soon as they arrive into your world, you will not survive. Because when you’re attempting to play the sport by the foundations that they set out for you, which is stacked towards you, I do not imagine that I do not imagine it should work. Do you? Do you imagine that that the entrepreneurial inventive, the inventive entrepreneur goes to be the important thing to creating a dwelling on this enterprise,
Pen Densham 25:55
we’re in a revolution, we do not know the place we’re going. But I at all times figured there’d be 100 million TV channels. And I used to be pondering that for the reason that 90s. Oh, we’re not
Alex Ferrari 26:05
too far off.
Pen Densham 26:06
We’re not too far off. It prices you nothing to add your movie now to YouTube and really revenue from it. So you possibly can truly turn out to be your individual studio and your individual distributor. Now what what the subsequent factor is, how do you get an viewers and that comes again to being imaginative indirectly. We did a TV particular on magic many, a few years in the past. And we full that present, we hung a man in secret over Niagara Falls and did a straight jacket escape. And that we, you already know, to begin with, once we once we went to Niagara Falls parks fee, they mentioned no freakin means, you are by no means going to try this. So then we realized that we have been completely reject. And then we determined, Okay, so then we analyzed who was on the parks board discovered a man who was 80 years outdated, who knew my brother, my father in legislation. And we requested him if we might present him one among our films. And we confirmed him a film that was about sports activities heroes of Canada, he got here out of the screening crying, and he then allow us to go and make a presentation to the board. Again, it will already completely refuse this. And I occur to go to that on a day after they have been fixing Niagara Falls, and so they had a crane exterior, killing in concrete on locations on it. And I mentioned, I actually, to begin with need to apologize, I didn’t let you know how essential this was to our firm. But secondly, I’m going to let you know a secret. My man who’s doing this research was the wonderful, Randy says it is no worse than falling off the bed. It’s like no hazard. And however we do not wish to inform people who. And then I mentioned you have already got folks hanging out over the Niagara Falls proper now, when you look out the window. So I all that effort ended up that I used to be capable of shoot elevating Randy the other way up and when Agra falls in secret in the midst of winter, after which we held the pictures till the present went on the air. And I phoned up each newspaper in Canada. And they mentioned, We provides you with unique on this these images that nobody knew we might performed of a stunt at Niagara Falls, when you’ll put them on the entrance web page. And we weren’t with some other newspaper have. So and we ended up getting entrance pages with our stunt which promoted our film. Now, is that effort regular? Or is it what it’s a must to do? I do not know. But it definitely for us was the one means we might break by the litter that we had again then. And I feel that very same sort of software of vitality, whether or not it is discovering a purpose why an viewers ought to tune in or discover a purpose why a purchaser can purchase these issues are actually a part of making movies. And I realized from Norman jewison. Mike, Mike, my luck was that we did loads of brief movies, then we did loads of TV specials. And we’d not be in getting assist to do a drama. And I finally discovered to a good friend of mine who’s one other filmmaker, he mentioned CBC is giving 10 grand anyone that may make an concept as a younger filmmaker that they’re going to approve. I made a decision I’d write a drama, which was probably the most depressing expertise in my life by no means performed it earlier than. It did not matter, proper. I used to be 30 I had at all times been too scared, ended up working with direct directing actors that by no means performed in my life. It was probably the most depressing expertise, like Todd edited, like a sports activities movie collectively. He pours out of it. It was a chunk of shit. And I used to be so embarrassed. I sat with him within the modifying room and there was days it was taken movie. Oh my god, I simply let everybody down. We need to do one thing what occurs? What does this face appear like earlier than he says that line? And you already know that was a
Alex Ferrari 29:33
man that took a minute to do again that took
Pen Densham 29:35
all Yes. And you take a look at it seems to be just like the man’s pondering. And you go oh my god. What else can we do? So I went by the entire thing doctoring it with my companion placing it into cuts, increasing the pauses, you already know, and it wasn’t 14 Awards. I’m going no no no. I simply barely survived this and Norman jewison gives me free paper by the Indian Government come to Hollywood and are going, Oh, I do not deserve this, you should I mustn’t do that, as a result of there is a factor referred to as imposter syndrome. And when I’m coming again, some you are speaking about earlier, however folks, I’m invited yearly by closing draft and meet the winners of the ultimate draft contest. And what I do is I’ve a breakfast with them. And I speak about imposter syndrome, which is the failure to make the most of a possibility. And what we solely get these alternatives every now and then. And if we query ourselves throughout that chance, as a substitute of pushing to its most potential, helpful final result, we fail ourselves, and we will be well mannered, we will really feel prefer it’s it is mistaken to push ourselves and that that is most likely a mistake, and we do not deserve it. And I’ll regularly ask them, What else have you ever succeeded with? And I mentioned, Well, we, you already know, was in main college play, I’ve a number of writing prizes. And you notice that these folks have a consistency, however they do not validate it. And that is one of the harmful issues as a creator isn’t believing in your self, and never going to take alternatives. And I say, my worst private harm is the issues that didn’t have the braveness to stay my neck out and check out. I name these my errors of omission. And they nonetheless hang-out me for going, Oh, you fool, you possibly can have walked throughout the room and sophistication. That man, that actor you did not do it since you did not. And so I wish to encourage folks take the freakin shot as a result of your areas of comission the place you embarrass your self briefly minor in contrast with the alternatives you would possibly discover. And so going again to taking one other shot at Niagara Falls, it was embarrassing. It was scary. I’d already been rejected. Les Moonves after I had the concept of attempting to revive the Twilight Zone final time was revived, rejected me soundly, thrice in a row would truly mentioned sure. And then modified his thoughts. That would possibly ship him a letter saying, you already know it as a result of he is modified his thoughts. Because the system they mentioned, TV could not use anthologies. And I mentioned, Well, you’ve got received 60 minutes, and you have unsolved mysteries. They’re anthologies, identical host each week, completely different tales. And they have been primary. That’s not the identical factor. So I get shut down. Can we received this clip of items from our grownup limits TV sequence, which was science fiction, fantasy, some fantastic, actually fascinating CGI and issues we have been doing at that time. And we put this collectively to display what we have been doing. And I mentioned to my companion, john, he put the Twilight Zone music on that. So I then I delivered it to Les Moonves, and his, his folks thought it was unbelievable. Unless there’s I’m not doing these items. And then les will get management of UPN, which is the community at the moment that had Star Trek on it. And that was the primary present. And I’m going to my companion, john and mentioned, Could you get a lesson talked about that Twilight Zone is perhaps good, as a result of we discovered, by the way in which that they personal the Twilight Zone. So it was not me coming to them with one thing I’m attempting to truly get them to do one thing. I like the Twilight Zone, I’m the one one who can truly present each the Twilight Zone have the outlet. So I my companion says, No, no, no, it’s a must to do it. And I received to do that. I’m too scared, I’m gonna he is gonna, he is gonna like scream at me. And then what I did was I discovered what I name a framing machine, which is, I’m taking you thru the steps of attempting to be entrepreneurial.
I discovered one thing that made me comfy. And a framing machine, we use these phrases as a result of we would have liked the, we have to assist one another, discover this stuff, which is one thing you possibly can say, or one thing you felt that protected you so you possibly can take the danger of sticking your neck out and attempting to get to your dream. And my framing machine was I wasn’t brave sufficient to cellphone much less. But I used to be prepared to put in writing him a letter. And my letter that got here as much as me that gave me permission to speak to him was DLS. So wholesome. I swear I’ll by no means talked about the phrase twilight zone to you ever once more, after this. And that was my good friend machine. And I felt nice. And then I wrote, how about it being a companion piece to Star Trek. I used to be in his workplace the subsequent day. He mentioned, I’m providing you with 10 days as a result of we’re up towards the deadline. You can write no matter you need a 10 minute presentation, no matter you need. I wrote it on a one hour pilot. I did not know I might write a one hour pilot. But when you fucking put your self below the it is wonderful what you are able to do. We have been taking pictures it inside 40 days.
Alex Ferrari 34:47
So to me that is unparalleled within the trade.
Pen Densham 34:51
But it is as a result of the demand was at his want. I used to be filling his knee. He’s taking on a community he has a quantity as soon as Science Fiction present. And the concept of teaming up with one of many biggest anthology sequence is, and we, we at all times bowed to that not being us, we have been selecting up the mantle of storytelling. But it wasn’t our present. We have been, we have been celebrating what had gone earlier than. And that is an instance of not giving up.
Alex Ferrari 35:25
That’s that is his
Pen Densham 35:29
phrase. But every now and then, you find yourself with a hit. 22.
Alex Ferrari 35:35
That’s wonderful. And one factor that
Pen Densham 35:38
you mentioned earlier than, as a result of we had two tales each episode,
Alex Ferrari 35:41
in order that was truthful sufficient, truthful sufficient. So the one factor you mentioned that I needed to the touch on is that you simply have been fulfilling his want, the place I really feel that loads of screenwriters and filmmakers are asking you to meet their wants, you are not being of service to you. So like, when you’re the individual I’m attempting to pitch or do one thing else, doing that analysis, since you, you need good tasks, you you need good issues to do, and so to studios, and so they all need you to be a superb undertaking. They all need your script to be the subsequent biggest factor of all time. But most individuals and I see it, I get it in my inbox each day. I simply actually received one right now that like despatched me a display, a screenwriting a screenplay, a courier script, Curry, no matter that factor is, the place they’re like, Hey, I’ve a brand new script, I received this sort of protection Would you love to do? I’m like, do you not know who I’m? Do you? Do you assume I’ve some kind of? Sure, this is 1,000,000 {dollars}, that is gonna make it. I’m not that man. You did not know analysis, however you despatched it to me anyway. And, however however by being of service to whoever you are attempting to pitch is a lot extra highly effective, and in addition extra highly effective if you’re promoting to an viewers, if you’re promoting to a buyer, if you’re promoting to a producer or a studio being of service to them needs to be the way in which you lead with these pitches, is
Pen Densham 37:02
that make sense? Well, you selected to play this recreation, which price thousands and thousands of {dollars} or highschool if we now make a movie on our iPhone, which is feasible. But you are still investing your time and vitality it’s a must to take a look at the top result’s attempting to get it to a mass market. It’s not such as you’re attempting to do that for private causes, you are attempting to get as many individuals as potential to see it. Now, when you would, when you have been promoting a automobile, would you exit and promote a home like a mini inside who’s received six relations? You know, so it is like, asking these questions, you are going to promote a Cadillac Escalade, to someone who’s simply come out of faculty and has, you already know, gigantic payments for his or her training and no cash now. So you are what you are attempting to do is suit your undertaking, as a result of there’s most likely a spot your undertaking would possibly match. If you’ve got requested for proof the undertaking by testing with folks that you simply belief, that the fabric is powerful sufficient now. What you are taking a look at is, okay. What what folks? Could you see utilizing this as a instrument to get into their objectives? Not I’m going to ship it in all places. But how can I make it private, so that you simply see a director who’s performed a number of, very, very excessive key however very unimportant, unemotional films, Marvel Comics or one thing, you marvel in the event that they and also you see your analysis beneath them, you see, wow, oh, my God, this man studied Shakespeare. And then after which. And you then notice that perhaps he likes one thing that is actually contained, however would actually exhibit his expertise, working with actors and feelings. And you you then method the system in his by his both his company’s administration or by his personal manufacturing firm, and also you inform them and crucial factor in any letter is acknowledge the standard that you simply validate in that individual. Because the very first thing they learn goes to be, oh, he will get me or she will get me, versus I’ve simply received this undertaking and would you purchase it? It is I understood from researching you as a result of I beloved your this, that this and that. And but additionally I noticed that you simply had this deep coronary heart, you are truly donate cash to charity for no matter that is. And I’ve immense emotions for that very same factor. Would it’s okay if I shared this undertaking with you? And one other instrument is do not promote, ask for recommendation. Sometimes it’s simpler to get in to satisfy someone or to trade data by displaying them that you simply perceive what they’ve performed by discovering an advocate. Maybe you’ve got gone to movie college and your professor will say, you already know, I like this man. He’s very distinctive and I imagine that you simply’re speaking to him would assist assist his profession. You get that out of your professor, you take the time. And you then go to this individual and also you sit with them. Talk about your Career, what you possibly can be taught from them, you create a relationship. And alongside the way in which, you talked about the undertaking, you assume that he would possibly like, that is the hassle, it’s a must to go to not sending a frickin electronic mail app.
Alex Ferrari 40:10
You imply sending 5000 emails out and, and it would not even say their title, it simply says Hello,
Pen Densham 40:16
sure. Or even worse, you already know, and people poor folks, you already know, they they’re, they are not mistaken in sense that the college methods do not train entrepreneurs, the universities aren’t about attempting that can assist you discover routes to success, they’re about attempting to suit you right into a system. And, and it doesn’t suggest to say that you simply will not succeed a while simply the legislation of averages, the monkeys and typewriters will write Shakespeare, you already know, we have now sufficient of them. But when you may help your self by discovering your framing units and discovering instruments that attain out to folks by your real care and pleasure, to ship one thing to them, you imagine it is particular to their expertise that you simply validate. That’s a a lot simpler method to promote. Now,
Alex Ferrari 41:00
I needed a one of many issues that we talked about once we first met at that at that mixer was your work on a movie that was launched in 1991, referred to as Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves. And I instructed you I sat there gushing, as a result of Robin Hood in 1991, I nonetheless keep in mind it. So clearly, I used to be working at a video retailer throughout that point. And I went to the movie show with my good friend, we sat within the entrance row as a result of it was bought virtually bought out. So we needed to sit within the very entrance. And you already know, with our necks cranked up and we watched it and I do not know if it was the explanation that we felt like we have been inside it as a result of we have been so near the display. Or if it was simply that impactful to that that top college child. But once we walked out of that theater, we went proper again in and watched it once more inside inside 20 minutes. And I do not I might depend on what number of instances I’ve performed that in my hand. That’s how fantastic of an journey it was for us. And it was such a it is one among my favourite movies of that period. Can you inform me how did you you wrote you wrote Robin Hood? Prince of Thieves and also you’re additionally a producer on it. How did you the way did this entire factor come to return to be? Because Robin Hood is a kind of you already know, each each decade or two they simply redo a robin hood? You know they and I do not know earlier than although Kevin Costner one. When was the final Robin Hood? Like previous to that?
Pen Densham 42:19
Oh, most likely Disney. The anime?
Alex Ferrari 42:21
Yeah, the kouachi. So that we’re speaking about like 30 years previous to that. And then Flynn was previous to previous to that. And
Pen Densham 42:28
I do not forget that there was a banks whose earlier than that, and
Alex Ferrari 42:32
others, however I do do not forget that there was a TV film that got here round that was attempting to hack it simply leap on that Robin Hood bandwagon I keep in mind very clearly within the jar to launch it as a as a result of I labored the video retailer. So I keep in mind watching.
Pen Densham 42:44
Oh, sure. Right. So I keep in mind watching that video story behind that too. Okay, effectively, if I get boring, lower me off and simply say get to the top.
We’ve been very profitable in Hollywood working with folks like Stallone who’d requested us to make things better in his movies as consultants, as a result of our personal fingers on means with GM was very profitable for getting issues resolved. We labored exterior of the definition of only a script. So we had entry to folks, which may be very cool. But we additionally checked out what we have been additionally doing was in Canada, we select and selected to pursue issues that excited us. Having had the privilege of getting a spouse, I checked out what do I wish to say and I’m taking a look at Stallone making films about killing plenty of folks and sports activities and I could make in commander the place human beings are simply targets and I’m taking a look at us elevating his child placing all this vitality and and going, what an infinite quantity of affection and energy it takes to boost a toddler and you might be utilizing them as goal practices, what would I prefer to say. And I got here up with this concept of placing a Muslim and a Christian aspect by aspect in a robin hood, which might present to persons are completely different of various who’s imagined to be enemies truly studying from one another. And additionally got here up with this concept of what I referred to as the makers of life versus the takers of life, which was when you had a hero hero, and it might be a heroine who’s prepared to die for the way forward for another person. That’s like a we did backdraft which is sort of a fireman is prepared to die so he offers different folks a future. That’s a maker of life. That’s an altruistic hero. Whereas a taker of life is somebody who places their foot on a scorching lifeless corpse and thinks they’ve performed one thing fantastic. So I went out and pitched a robin hood. That was a few lesson hidden inside an journey as a result of I grown up on Robin Hood. I grown up on the TV present identical to you watched ours and got here away with my coronary heart stuffed with leaping off rocks with a sword in my hand. And I went to 3 completely different studios and pitched the Robin Hood concept I had which was to take it and make it a an journey however with this concept of placing a Muslim with him. And the three all mentioned just about the identical factor. No one desires to see guys with swords all he desires these guys with weapons, you are losing time. And I used to be about to surrender. There was a variety of there was a, there was a thought that I used to be additionally off target, by attempting to place an Arab in Robin Hood that did not look good to a few folks I knew. And we had a companion, we have now an assistant who was working with us referred to as Mark Sturm. And marks kind of checked out my notes and mentioned, You know what, I feel it is a terrific concept. If you begin out attempt to show you how to. And so the one purpose Robin Hood exists this as a result of that man gave me sufficient encouragement to blow on the embers of one thing that I’d virtually given up on. And I began writing. And each day I checked out what I used to be writing, as a result of I wrote simply passionately not not, not with any plan simply to see what would come out to me. Every day, I checked out my pages and thought they have been apparent. It’s foolish. And Maid Marian comes out. And she’s very giant. And she’s and Robin is shocked and appears up at her on the balcony and says, Oh, my the years have been form to you. And then instantly, he is jumped by an individual in leathers. And that seems to be made. And that appears apparent to me. And like my assistant isn’t any, no. And then he is giving the pages to john Watson who’s studying Oh, my god, no, no, preserve going pen. So I’ve received inspired to maintain taking dangers. And we ended up that the movie I received, I received the script out of me in three weeks. But it additionally then I gave it to john, to undergo it and format it and add any any concepts, any adventures, and so it had his layer on it. And then because it received shot, completely different folks added different parts. And we ended up with a wealthy, humorous, heat script that was the seeds of what I created, and the vitality of what I created. And to me, I used to be making a film the place you taught folks a lesson about altruism, the place you took the richest, most spoiled and never simply Lord son, and he instructed his dad to go screw himself, he was going off to combat and father’s begging him to not attempt to power a person to a different man’s faith. And he comes residence, sees his father’s lifeless, and takes his anger by making his peasants exit and combat the present. And then notice that every one he is doing is destroying their lives. And then he has an epiphany, and he is prepared to die for his or her sons for his or her youngsters’s future. And we put a delivery scene within the film. And the delivery scene is metaphorically my son being born. And Robin Hood would not. It is each an journey. But it is also a philosophical assertion of life for me. And I could not quit on it. And so there have been and john
took on the problem of he was what I name as much as with Aston Martin arrows more often than not, as a result of he is a terrific onset producer, and I’m bar thinker, producer. So I used to be engaged on modifications and writing issues. And, and whereas he was actually taking the model and getting 100 day shoot. But the film itself grew as every channel is every component got here to it. And Michael got here and rating was simply extraordinary. I additionally received to run the combo. And I’m very a lot about if you create a film, you are weaving a dream. And the objective isn’t to let your viewers get up. It’s like blowing up a balloon, you should by no means let the air out. And so in a combination, I fear about each side of it. Can I pre lamp a sound coming in from the subsequent scene? So there is not any pause, however you are not aware of it. If there is a pause within the within the dialogues, that is, that is empty, can I put birds flying from the bushes in order that your ears tuned with out it figuring out that you simply did not truly hear some dialogue. So I I’m additionally excited in that technique of preserving a trance, which is do not wait, do not just like the viewers get up. And so if you combine a film, which is probably the most lovely a part of the film, as a result of like a Frankenstein, you are placing new blood in it. And then relating to life. To me, each side of creating a movie is like costumes inform a narrative. Sound Effects inform a narrative. They have character and distribution, even the title. Your title units up a trance state and induction. A couple of I studied hypnosis. So there is a factor you already know, it is simply inducing folks and inducing folks makes them wish to go together with you into the dream state. And what does that imply? I feel Hollywood is a is a referred to as the dream manufacturing unit. Because actually, tales work on our Dream Center. Like we have now receptors in us. And that was what Marshall McLuhan taught me after I was all these years in the past, saying, Look at an viewers watching a film. And you will see they’re in a trance, and so they’re shifting their faces with the characters on the display. And years later, I discovered myself So that mentioned, the explanation that that is taking place, which is fascinating to me is that we have now a social construction in us, which is the power to sense and really feel empathy with others. And the way in which it really works is that we’re hardwired to our ache facilities, we micro mimic the expressions of others as we watched them, after which we really feel what they really feel. And when you Botox your self, you do not really feel as a lot and you do not ship as a lot, proper, which is fascinating. And we have now this stuff referred to as mirror neurons, that are in a swap gentle up within the elements of our mind, once we watch someone do one thing, and even once we learn a guide about someone doing one thing, those self same elements of our mind gentle up as what the characters doing within the guide. So that is why I come again to this trot state. The function of a narrative, which is the factor that most individuals do not perceive, is to show us a lesson about ourselves. So that we are able to truly watch the struggles of the characters and make selections about our personal lives and the issues we battle with. Based on making a choice. Having noticed others battle comes again to when you have a hero in a film, Superman is not weak, he would not have an issue. There’s nothing to be taught from. So and the true function of movies is to search out what the characters ground is what the issue is, and illustrate it to the exterior story of getting the journey out. But inside is the precise journey. And it is normally solely like three steps. I’m a spoiled wealthy brat, I then have a tantrum, which causes extra issues. And then I come to be taught who I needs to be, if I used to be not spoiled, and take accountability for myself. That’s mistaken, you
Alex Ferrari 51:46
know. And so the way in which you’ve got defined it now, figuring out the film so effectively as effectively, as I do is that it simply provides a complete different layer to it. You ought to have performed the director’s commentary, or a commentary producers commentary, writers commentary on the DVD observe, again within the day, as a result of it does open up
Pen Densham 52:05
a totally. You know, once more, it is completely different various things get to a writing viewers, I’ll speak about this stuff. It’s diet. An monumental variety of tales do not have diet and emotion is that you simply, you’ve got received a private journey that you could relate to, that you could uncover the way to change your self due to watching these folks battle. And I got here up with a system inside our firm as a result of we developed a whole lot of tales, the place I modified digicam with code phrases pulled a nugget nugget for us, is the seed contained in the story that is going to develop within the mind of the individual watching it. And what you already know, an instance can be a person is getting married, and his girlfriend is beginning to really feel the nearer to the date, the extra he is kind of like dwelling in a world and she or he’s feeling that she’s being suffocated, as a result of every part she’s doing is there. And he is not letting her have a way of her personal freedom. And she referred to as off the marriage. And she says to him, you already know, I am unable to do that. And you already know, you are not letting me be me. And I’m, and he mentioned, You do not perceive. My mom left the household on Christmas Eve after I was 5 years outdated, and I did not know the way to love her sufficient. So she was Stay with us. And she says I’m not your mom, it’s a must to belief me, it’s a must to give me my freedom. That’s a nugget. And it is three strains of dialogue. But it is received such ache and harm in it. And the story is, can he let go of his outdated fears and belief this lady to be the one MP he desires her to be in? Can you be the person who you’ll have been if that harm had by no means occurred? So when you take a look at the story, and also you say Okay, can I can I outline these issues? in you? My rule is you write tales Anyway, you possibly can’t, you then search for this stuff and see when you can emphasize them. And normally this piece of knowledge is mentioned on the stomach of the beast isn’t as, as Joseph Campbell says, when the characters crash and burn on the finish of the second act, and all seems to be hopeless, they do a reassessment of who they’re, and a personality who has an affect on them will will counsel one thing or will change their perspective on themselves. And the final act is can they turn out to be who they actually needs to be. And we be taught we then find out about ourselves letting go of our personal fail damages or and utilizing methods to have a greater place in life.
Alex Ferrari 54:31
Yes to every part you simply mentioned sure. It’s it is, it is it is wonderful. I’m simply sitting right here simply listening to you. And I’m identical to, you already know, like, I really feel like I’m simply sitting right here like round a campfire proper now speaking to you as you clarify this stuff the way in which you do you might have a really hypnotic tone
Unknown Speaker 54:48
to you. Right?
Alex Ferrari 54:50
You have your voice may be very
Pen Densham 54:51
hypnotic in an excellent means can write for everyone as a result of there’s going to be people who do issues completely completely different from something I might think about. Oh no, no query. And I say Einstein mentioned, it isn’t that I’m smarter than different folks, I simply keep up assume longer. And I’ve the privilege of doing so many tales and attempting to make that course of less complicated and make it efficient. And I’m a humanist. So I would like my tales to succeed in out. And I imagine storytellers are mainly what shaman would have been round that campfire, which is to assist the society pull collectively.
Alex Ferrari 55:25
And that is its function. Now, if you made if you made you had a run of the 2 movies again to again, which was fairly profitable. You had Robin Hood, and you then had backdraft, which is the Ron Howard film. And each of them are wonderful movies once more, throughout my video retailer day, so I, I made certain to counsel that to many, many individuals, sir. So. But what was it like cuz I’ve had different visitors on the present, too, after they had that one or two like that. There’s moments you’ve got had a number of moments in your profession, however that I feel that was most likely one of many first massive
Pen Densham 55:56
publicity that put us within the math another way. We’ve performed a number of options, however nothing has opened the doorways as a lot. And and though the doorways open, they did not imply you get carte blanche. No. I say scripts are like sperm on this city, there’s thousands and thousands of eggs in manufacturing, so that you could frustrate the heck out of your self. You write a script, and it might be probably the most lovely, probably the most coherent, probably the most emotionally potent, you possibly can’t get it made. And you are damning your self, since you assume you failed. No. When I take a look at my I vote within the app, it is yearly, which is the Academy. And there’s normally a listing of 300 films, solely 300 films certified in America to be thought of the very best. And so we have got 1000s and 1000s of scripts on the market. And it isn’t a it isn’t essentially a press release of failure, when one thing would not get made.
Alex Ferrari 56:54
Now, what was it like I at all times ask my visitors at a while, particularly if there’s been that second, that second that sort of actually explodes them on the town. What is it like being the belle of the ball, as a result of I keep in mind Robin Hood, when that got here out, that was a monster hit. It was a really, very giant hit for each Kevin.
Pen Densham 57:10
I imply, Kevin was on that was that was his peak time it Dances with Wolves. So we have been getting an infinite quantity of desires, horrible evaluations. My son was with us in New York, and he mentioned, Why do these folks hate you that has their evaluations within the New York Times are horrible, however you already know the factor, you already know, Time Time heals all wounds and remembers critics. So you already know, in a means, you possibly can’t choose what you’ve got achieved besides, and that comes again to this factor. Do what you do, do it to the very best of your talent stage, let let time be the choose of it. But when you do not, and I after I say proper, create assume you do not do it to the purpose the place it is harmful, which implies you are going towards the conference, as you are going in, you take it, you are not going to search out your voice, you are not going to be the numerous individual. Everybody says, Well, I wish to movie like his as a result of he is received a voice. And we these do not stick out with novelty and originality, however they’re nonetheless going to observe the identical footsteps of any good story. But they are going to be in a contemporary means. So we get Robinhood we get some doorways opened up. But we additionally get requested to do each bow and arrow movie on this planet. And then we discover their movies that the system isn’t it is you bought to find it irresistible. And you possibly can’t get it let it get you down. But I frolicked with Mark Stan truly serving to me with my my my writing assistant on that undertaking. I frolicked with Arnold Schwarzenegger engaged on Gulliver’s Travels for Disney spent like 18 months, the Disney at the moment goes, you already know, it is a actually good script. I do not know why I’m not gonna make it
Alex Ferrari 58:59
and have and have Arnold hooked up. Yes. So Arnold within the 90s, which arguably, he was nonetheless one of many greatest film stars on this planet on the time.
Pen Densham 59:08
So he says, however you But you see, that is regular. And we have gone by dozens and dozens of steps. And you notice that the logistics of this aren’t why not their survival lengthy sufficient with preserve attempting to current the belongings you care about. So that you simply’re prepared to take the dangers of exposing your self to attempt to get them to turn out to be actuality. And when you do not care about what you’ve got performed, which works again to do not simply do one thing since you assume it should promote. You’re not going to maintain going by the years and years. Now what we’re speaking about Harriet Tubman briefly.
Alex Ferrari 59:43
Yeah, so yeah, it is for everyone to know once we’re recording this Harriet simply got here out the weekend prior. And it did bid on the gangbusters and folks have been like actually overperformed so please inform us the way you’re concerned with that.
Pen Densham 59:54
Much greater than anyone anticipated, which is fantastic. Harriet Tubman I found As an Englishman, listening to a quiz present, which requested what what lady sporting American uniform went into battle soldier. And I received that sounds attention-grabbing. It’s the one one. And I’m going and begin researching the reply, which is Harriet Tubman and discover this extraordinary, mythic, unimaginable altruistic heroine. And it appeals to me very a lot to make movies which have gotten a reinforcement of human nature. We managed to get Disney, which was Hollywood photos that point to put in writing a script with Gregory Allen Howard, who was one of many producers and one of many writers on the Harrier, and we received three drops out, and we could not get it made. Run, we have been approached by individuals who had picked up the baton, and proud to say, we didn’t stand in the way in which we mentioned, Take the undertaking, didn’t cost the cash for it, and mentioned, simply allow us to keep concerned indirectly. Give us a credit score, if that is comfy for you. But God bless you exit and get it made, as a result of her story is way more essential than us having cash in trade for it. There are issues that you simply you simply assume America wants that story. Mm hmm. Oh, then the producers on the film, who took up the problem? You know, they undergo fireplace, and so they received by fireplace. And they ended up with a wonderful movie, an exquisite human assertion, an ethical function that I’m so proud to be related to. But all I did was plant the seed
Alex Ferrari 1:01:41
in you, when did you begin that journey? 90? Correct. So I can solely think about attempting to get right here.
Pen Densham 1:01:50
A 94 once we bought, Greg Allen, the way it getting written. So even there was 4 years of attempting to get that.
Alex Ferrari 1:01:57
And through the 90s this was not gonna occur. Like there was simply I do not assume it will have been very troublesome in that setting. I imply, in right now’s world, it is it is robust. But there’s a gap for that there is a dialog about, about minorities and about different different different tales that must be instructed from completely different views and so forth. Back then it will have been very troublesome, like, I’m simply attempting to consider the Hollywood photos emblem developing with that film. I’m like, within the 90s
Pen Densham 1:02:25
I’m an optimist. So you by no means know. I imply, that is the factor. You gotta go, you gotta strive that. And the great thing about it’s it, it takes a group. I used to be I could have, you already know, blown up the soccer firstly.
When I performed the sport,
it takes a group the place we selected a really troublesome enterprise.
Alex Ferrari 1:02:49
No, and it’s and it is and I at all times inform folks, we have our paintbrush, and canvas might be the one of the costly on the planet, you already know, to play with. And aside from structure, I feel I at all times say is like, so far as an artwork type is anxious, that is most likely one of the costly artwork kinds there’s. And as filmmakers, and as creatives, we have now to take some fiscal accountability with the cash that we’re given, or that we spend on this on these on this course of on this course of the place I simply love when filmmakers we have by no means made a film ever. And by the way in which, I put myself on this class as a result of I mentioned the very same factor. When I first began, all I would like is 3 million. All I would like is 5 million, 5 million I could make It’s nothing. It’s 5 million. It’s not that massive a deal. The final film was made for 200 million a Marvel spending 5 million on espresso. it you already know, and that is all effective. I did write that. I’ve heard this. I’m certain you’ve got heard this 1,000,000 instances. anybody listening on the market? No. It would not work that means.
Pen Densham 1:03:42
Yeah, there’s some outliers, after all which have that, you already know, they make their their indie film after which are given a Marvel film or given a giant studio film or one thing like that. But they’re outliers. It’s not the way in which the enterprise works. Is that truthful to say? Well, you possibly can create your individual enterprise when you’re capable of have sufficient guts or sufficient companions who’re serving to you. I do assume that film enterprise as you’ve got been asking is, is altering. But I am unable to let you know the way it’s altering. Where’s the the place would you set your vitality proper now to attempt to get films made? I feel that, you already know, the apples and the Netflix remains to be not accepting impartial movies till you’ve got succeeded, then they’re going to cherry choose you. So your objective is to attempt to get one thing out. That will get viral, that will get emotional responses that will get you to be observed in legit awards, as a result of I feel there’s loads of awards comp teams which can be on the market that might not be truly providing you with standing whereas the Nicole’s are in closing draft or the Austin have very honest, very actual judgments in your work. And when you when you get and you bought to combat for this stuff, and and it is exhausting, horrifying, demoralizing, and due to this fact that is why I preserve coming again to when you Have a private philosophy and also you’re pursuing it, nothing you do is wasted. Every component that you simply write, even when that film would not get made, provides to your capability, it is like muscle improvement, it provides to your capability to the subsequent time you write. And I’ve seen myself proper out of sheer ardour, after I instantly hit the clicking second when it is proper. And I used to be speaking with one other younger author yesterday and speaking about precisely the identical factor, we have a tendency to put in writing a type. That is our nature comes out of our unconscious, what you are actually attempting to do is to get it out of your unconscious. And I’ve instruments for that. One of my instruments is to take a look at the method, like a Lewis and Clark Expedition. Any frickin method to the coast is legit.
Alex Ferrari 1:05:46
Amen, brother, amen.
Pen Densham 1:05:48
You’ve by no means been there earlier than. How are you able to critique the journey? know that after you get there, the good factor is simply get to the top. Because simply get any means you will get to the top. And if needed, I write bits. So I may need an ending after which get, I may need a center and an finish. I do not write in a linear type, I write no matter means it involves me, and I’m grateful for when you get to the top, you then get to see what you’ve got created. And you see what you’ve got truly subconsciously been given to your self. And typically it is like dictation out of God. You know, you simply do not know why you are getting it. But when you query it, you screw your self. So there is a web, there is a nag in your head, this recreation is at all times the time, nobody’s gonna prefer it, that neck has nothing to be goal about, what it is doing is it is simply attempting to forestall you from going right into a darkish cave. And it is useful when it is doing that. But it isn’t useful if you’re writing one thing you’ve got by no means written earlier than. So you bought to disregard the nag. And you then write down these items, and also you get to the top, and you then take a large celebratory sigh, as a result of that is a monumental achievement to get to the top of something creatively. And you then get the permission to take a look at it, and see why you actually wrote. And now now, you might have this chance to see what it says to you. And it did not exist earlier than. So now you are you can also make a judgment name. And I name that placing the freeway by. And what you are doing is you cleave off all of the issues you do not want, you mix two characters, so that they turn out to be one, you primarily, now know why you and the way you wish to go and why you are getting there. And you then put up freeway indicators. So all people else can observe you. But you do not do this as one factor you do not proper, I gotta be excellent received to get it out of me. And I received to chop it proper it so it may be successful. No, you simply get it out of you, after which tune it. And then return it as soon as you’ve got had folks learn it. So that you simply make it possible for the people who find themselves studying it, perceive what your objectives have been and do not do not simply have an ego snip and say, Oh, that is apparent, they need to not know if you are going to do this. And you are simply damning your self, as a result of you will see that that most individuals do not know, they do not have the time to learn, they learn very badly. Or they provide it to someone who does coverages, who’s paid 50 bucks to learn it in a rush. And so the extra highly effective you can also make the assertion and never permit it to be misunderstood, the extra probability you might have of promoting it.
Alex Ferrari 1:08:15
Now you additionally you’re employed clearly, as a producer, you’ve got labored with many administrators in your in your day. And you you are at all times in search of collaborators to place like that group collectively. Specifically, if you’re hiring the director, what do you search for in that director? Because I feel there’s a lot misinformation about what filmmakers need, you are smiling. Because Because you are prefer it as a result of there’s so many filmmakers have this phantasm of what a director must be like I at all times inform folks when you stroll on a set and the director has a T shirt that claims director or a hat that claims director you must run away. Generally talking, I do not see Ron Howard, or I do not see Steven Spielberg was the director and everybody simply is aware of who they’re. So what do you search for? What are the traits you search for for a superb collaborator and particularly the director?
Pen Densham 1:09:03
Well, it two completely different kinds. One is in TV, I search for individuals who will convey the sort of fashion that I had envisioned for the present to the display. And you already know, I’m I did area Rangers, which was a terrific enjoyable, I name the rock and roll in outer area in contrast with Star Trek, which was classical music. We solely land we solely received six episodes shot. But I selected folks that might shoot it like Hill Street Blues with a way of human. So I used to be in search of administrators who might truly facilitate issues I could not do myself as a as a present creator. But the opposite means we search for is individuals who’ve written one thing that is so poetic and delightful, or in order that we perceive that we are able to assist them getting it to the display. And so we regularly work with author administrators. It is or we work with administrators whose work we really feel simpatico with a visionary, who have a tendency to make use of the digicam in a means that is poetic So that our objective is that if we’re not, if I’m not doing it myself, I wish to do it with someone whose work I actually assume is thrilling. And my my mentorship as a producer on a set is to ask the questions of the director within the quiet areas that you simply get what you need. Don’t quit. Let me determine how that can assist you. Because I do know when I’m on a set, the quantity of stress, the variety of folks asking you questions, the the, the time points, the frickin impact did not work, and you have someone tapping and saying, we will golden time. I do know when you do not shoot it, and it would not work, proper. Don’t settle for it. We’ll determine it out. Because I’ve been there. And I do know when you settle for it, you are the Florida movie. And so I’m quietly attempting to be an ally, for the imaginative and prescient of the director, not telling him what to do. But I’ll typically include a palette of choices. Because I’m with stress, it is very easy to have concepts. Very true, very true. See three other ways you possibly can clear up this and any of those assist, however by no means telling him what to do.
Alex Ferrari 1:11:13
No, now you written this wonderful guide referred to as using the alligator. Can you go somewhat bit into particulars? And we talked about it somewhat bit earlier within the present. But are you able to simply go into somewhat element about what this guide is and who ought to learn it. Because you already know, it isn’t only for screenplay writing, I imply, it is also concerning the enterprise in some ways about the way to deal and navigate the enterprise, which is from an individual who truly navigates the enterprise and really has navigated for a few years. So inform me somewhat bit concerning the guide, The origins of the guide, and what you hope that it achieves.
Pen Densham 1:11:44
I used to be invited Well, it is an attention-grabbing factor. Again, I’m assistant to us, one of many improvement execs, who left our firm and gone to work for different corporations got here to me and mentioned, I gotta discuss to you. And I’m going, Okay, what’s it? He says, You received to put in writing a guide, it is I’m not writing a guide, as a result of I haven’t got anyone clarify issues the way in which you do. And I feel as a result of I work with companions the entire time. And I and I’m a visionary, I do not deny my creativity. I’ve at all times needed to clarify my creativity indirectly to attempt to get different folks on board. So we might all go in the identical route. And so he mentioned, write a guide on creativity. And I’m by no means going to try this. And then my companion who’s gone to USC, and is now a tenured professor there. So would you want to show, and I’m going to show however, and so they mentioned, effectively, it will be the entrepreneurial class, which is the pitching class. And I’m going, oh, cool, inventive entrepreneurial ism, I would not thoughts to search out out what that’s. Because perhaps that is after I might write a guide. But I used to be too scared to put in writing a guide. But it was I wrote one chapter. And I went in that first day, I gave the scholars my chapter. And I mentioned, below professor, mark my paper, and it was unpatched. And I wrote the guide primarily based on what I felt I needed to speak, the place my greatest vulnerabilities have been, the place my greatest failings have been, have been the issues I wanted to be reassured about, to create a way of voice, to not dictate what you need to obtain, attempt to discover methods to bolster folks’s expertise, so they might take the danger of being themselves. And my guide was determinately, aware of what I used to be studying from the MFA college students at USC, about what have been their instincts and what have been their emotions, and the way might I give them energy? So my, I, I do not imagine in instructing, I imagine in inspiring. I did not wish to make a guide that was a formulation, as a result of I, you already know, we at some point, we had a younger man rise up, run out of the room. And I phoned him up, and I mentioned, what, what occurred is that I simply panicked. And I made a decision I’d write a chapter on stress and the great aspect of stress, and attempt to put stress in a perspective, which is stress is definitely a constructive survival mechanism. When you take a look at it the suitable means. You know, we’re naturally drawback fixing creatures, nevertheless it doesn’t suggest it would not price us one thing to attempt to determine the way to clear up the issues. So by no means seen a guide with stress in it. I, after I first went in, I by no means taught I did not wish to freakin syllabus was I believed it was one thing needed to take penicillin. So I’m wanting on the syllabus on this, the earlier man, it was one guide, and going, I’ve received 30 folks already in a single guide, what a waste of time. So I then discovered 18 books, and I discovered them on Amazon and I mentioned, Okay, we will divide these books up, and all people’s going to do one paragraph on this guide, and the ten most essential issues that they realized from it, as if this was data you are going to share with your pals. So the primary week, the scholars are available in, and so they’re pitching the books and the ten issues, that is Amanda and after which I put 10 of these in my guide which have been They might you possibly can pattern 10 books on this on this space in Hollywood immediately, and make selections, whether or not that books you wish to purchase the place these concepts simply kind of suit you. And I additionally discovered folks like Shane Black and lead a colleague ritas, who’re profitable Hollywood, I requested them to put in writing a single small chapter on overcoming concern. And what was the worst factor that ever occurred to and since I’d herald folks, and I would not ask them, How did you succeed? I’d say, what is the worst factor you might have? Okay. And you discover that then it normalizes the method, you already know, I spent, one of the fantastic issues like like was, I received to have the ability to go and spend two days with David lean. He was on the American Film Institute, doing a retrospective of his movies. And what we found was that when he went when the movie, have been completely happy to introduce it, and he are available in afterwards to reply questions, after which he sat within the foyer. So, you already know, the fellows that have been sensible, went out within the foyer and spent two days asking him questions. And he complained about not having the ability to get Dino dilaurentis to greenlight his model of Mutiny on the Bounty, Robert bolt script. And he felt sabotage by that. He talked about his struggles to get issues that he needed performed. And it wasn’t as apparent and so simple as he makes it look when he succeeded. And it isn’t that I’m David lean, however what it did was it humanized the method. And it made it so it was comprehensible and obtain that take a look at what he’s his physique of labor and see how he work, which, once more, simply gave me braveness.
And so I needed my guide, to take the myths of being excellent. And I actually don’t love schematic books, besides as a guidelines on the finish of writing, then they’re useful. But firstly, when you’re attempting to put in writing another person’s formulation, you are you are going to run into loads of issues, attempting to assume like another person, loads of these persons are fantastic, they developed precisely, they’ve gotten loads of expertise, however they’ve by no means initiated, an initiating is blowing on an ember typically, and making it flame up. It’s like getting a two yr outdated to trip a bicycle, after they’re 15, you bought to get all the way in which to all these phases of creativity. And you do not do this by yelling at it, you do not do it by beating it each time it folds over, it is like, you bought to have the ability to see your self as nurtured and taking dangers and that making errors is regular. And it is acceptable. Because when you do not, you then will not have the ability to tackle the problem of attending to the top of a script. We permit ourselves in movie to do a number of takes with an actor, after which we shoot one other angle. So you already know, we should always permit ourselves that life, that having a number of takes, you already know, rewriting a guide is extra essential than writing it a way. Because you are capable of distill down, what do you perhaps took 10 pages to put in writing, now you can distill it all the way down to a extra cogent stage, you possibly can’t do this the primary time you write it. And to criticize your self for not writing coherently instantly is self flagellation is very unfair. So my my, my factor was to attempt to assist permit folks to leap into the unknown and different issues, philosophy philosophy, so selecting an agent or a supervisor, we are likely to assume we should always get the most important one, as a result of that is going to be a profession bonus. In reality, the most important one has to take care of the most important different writers. And so that you get little or no that individual’s time, my feeling was looked for the one who is your, what we’d name a Fairweather good friend, somebody who’s going to speak to you when it is shitty, not someone who’s going to speak to you when it is easy to promote you that they they’re philosophically trying to assist the imaginative and prescient and the fashion that you have, as a human being in your artwork. Because when you’re working towards them, and so they say, Oh, I am unable to promote that console that may’t promote that, you find yourself being demoralized. But if somebody says, you already know, when you simply did that, I might promote it. That distinction is gigantic. It’s it is vital to create a folks so my books effort was to attempt to discover and information folks to take steps in a profession in a lifetime. So that your work grew to become your life, so that you could combine each of them and in addition take care of the fallow intervals which alongside and in addition take care of the issues that you do not essentially promote as a result of there’s simply an excessive amount of on the market. And additionally inspired to take dangers and to stay your neck out and check out entrepreneurial concepts and after they do not work swap once more. And I you already know, I’m and it goes proper all the way down to the philosophy of how do you lay out a web page, which you’ll be able to’t argue about if you’re writing your first draft. But if you get all the way down to it, each phrase you get off a web page makes it simpler to put in writing simpler to learn. So I fear on the finish of the method, proper all the way down to the whitespace. In the structure, when you see a script that kind of helps you learn it, as a result of it is embracing your eye, and it would not have massive wedges, simply a neater script to promote. So each step of my processes is all about attempting to get the factor I deeply care about to an viewers that may purchase it. And if it would not go there, a minimum of I’ve carried it on with a way of private function, and be taught from the method.
Alex Ferrari 1:20:31
Amazing, sir. Amazing. Now, we have gone we have have been we might discuss for one more three hours, I’m certain. But, however I’m going to I’m going to ask you a number of questions. I ask all of my visitors. So to begin with, what are the highest three screenplays each screenwriter ought to learn? We will I imply, it isn’t going to be in your headstone suggests, you already know, simply
Pen Densham 1:20:56
it isn’t the kind of factor I take into consideration so I imply, I might I might danger three proper now. And then one other three. Yeah, gosh, that is awfully troublesome. Everybody’s gonna say Lawrence of Arabia. Good. Rubble, wrote in a really distilled and highly effective vogue, we truly received the privilege of assembly with him and tried to work with him on issues and really did work together with his son. And so a bolt script is a superb factor to learn. I feel you need to learn deadly weapon, which is once more, and it has what I name fusion writing. And fusion writing is what I actually, once more, you might have these guidelines, you are supposed to make use of the descriptions for sure stuff. No, you are supposed to make use of the descriptions to assist your retailer. And due to this fact, if you learn it, when Shane Black is like placing punch strains into the outline, he sees a gun. It’s a giant gun. And it is actually a hiring gun. You know, your efficiency is within the description areas in addition to within the dialogue. And if you already know, observe can carry ideas that make you see into their thoughts. So I insist that individuals write for him. I heard different folks say, Oh, no, no, I do. That’s towards the foundations. There aren’t any guidelines. The rule is promote your story. So when you learn deadly weapon, what you are studying is that this efficiency of images, this pulp fiction writing, nevertheless it’s simply so dynamic, that it causes you to wish to preserve studying and pulls you into the characters and into their lives and into their minds. So that is two, three. Okay. It’s a Wonderful Life.
Alex Ferrari 1:22:34
Okay, excellent.
Unknown Speaker 1:22:36
Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 1:22:36
that’ll do. That’ll do. All proper.
Pen Densham 1:22:38
I yearned to attempt to make a movie prefer it’s an exquisite life, I labored for 12 years on a undertaking of mine referred to as father time, which was about father time, who offers human beings time yearly. And he argues with the unique architect that we’re only a waste of time, and is pressured to go all the way down to earth for the final 24 hours earlier than he has permission, not give us any extra time, and bumps right into a household and mates what it’s to be human. And I wish to see that film. What
Alex Ferrari 1:23:03
why is that film that made
Pen Densham 1:23:06
extra movies on the market than there are folks to make them, you already know what scripts out. But it is a fantastic life, folks can use it as a comedy. But in actual fact, it is a it is a semi tragedy is a man, it may kill him. And all people loves him, and he’ll go away them behind. And what it truly is illustrative once more, of this altruistic heroism, the humaneness of that movie is simply lovely. So when you learn it, you actually become familiar with a number of the the weather of it which can be very humanistic, and fairly troubling, and on the identical time, very lovely. And reinforcing of human nature. Now, what
Alex Ferrari 1:23:45
recommendation would you give a filmmaker, or screenwriter attempting to interrupt into the enterprise right now?
Pen Densham 1:23:52
Well, it relies upon what your objectives are. If you wish to write, I’d say, go and attempt to write anyway. I, in my guide, I’ve a chapter on what to do when you’re not truly within the enterprise, which is go work someplace that is inventive, see creativity occurring. Go work for a cable firm that is doing native exhibits for the neighborhood, as a result of they’ll probably allow you to do issues as a result of nobody is actually desires to tackle the work and volunteer for it. Try writing issues which can be that you simply put out your self in your mobile phone, put them on the web, put them to the practice, attempt to get observed. You know, once more, do not overwhelm your self. Another factor that lifetimes 9 was promoting commercials for all times, and that was to not overwhelm the children. And so typically folks will do these epic issues, which they cannot, they battle to realize. But when you say I’m going to do a 3 minute totally, extremely potent brief movie, you will get folks to take a look at that. You can get that to a studio govt. He mentioned All I would like is you already know 120 For your seconds or no matter it’s. And when you’ve mastered one thing, and you are able to do it, I imply commercials do it each day that’s unique, completely different, potent, we have got a greater probability of getting observed. Then when you do one thing which is 10 minutes and floppy and would not fairly maintain collectively since you might. So my my angle is because of instruments that show you how to break in, discover allies who’re prepared to spend time with you already in there. So social go to go take lessons on screenwriting, that there are evening college as a result of you are going to meet different folks which can be doing and you are going to discover a neighborhood. That’s the Ken Robinson because the primary TED Talk, which is Weis, how faculties kill creativity. What what he talks about is locate your tribe and hang around with them. And meaning engineers solely really feel comfy speaking to different engineers as a result of their brains work that means. musicians are most comfy with different musicians. And they instantly begin grooving off one another and so they begin giving one another katatak charismatic catalytic concepts. And so you need to go attempt to discover the place you possibly can grasp with folks which can be doing one thing you wish to obtain in a non dogmatic space, so that you could be taught from them. And I say that my buddy who flew me out and mentioned the CBC has received this TV present is the explanation I’ve a profession in Hollywood. A good friend tipped me off. And apparently sufficient, we’re nonetheless mates and govt producer on his newest film, which is a film concerning the Beatles going to Rishikesh with Maharishi. And yesterday, we’re chatting. And, you already know, I’ve tried to assist clear up these issues. And as a result of from the surface, it is really easy. You know, if you’re in the midst of it, you bought this cloud round your head. So
Alex Ferrari 1:26:43
is that film being made is that film being made, it is made, it is,
Pen Densham 1:26:46
it is completed,
Alex Ferrari 1:26:47
I am unable to wait to see it.
Pen Densham 1:26:48
I am unable to wait to see. And, you already know, I truly went with him and my spouse and one other good friend to Rishikesh a yr in the past and went to the ashram, which is now like a jungle damage. And that the Indian authorities is slowly attempting to show it again into vacationer spot, vacationers neck. That’s wonderful. He went out when the Beatles first have been there, and photographed them, as a result of he was operating away from a nasty breakup. And identical to spending the 60 instances, Jesus.
Alex Ferrari 1:27:23
Alright, so what’s the lesson that took you the longest to be taught whether or not within the movie enterprise or in life?
Pen Densham 1:27:29
That’s the one I’ve? stick my neck out extra?
Alex Ferrari 1:27:34
Really take extra possibilities is what you say.
Pen Densham 1:27:37
Yeah, I’m horrible at it.
Alex Ferrari 1:27:39
You’ve performed okay, sir, you’ve got performed okay.
Pen Densham 1:27:42
I, however the attention-grabbing factor about inventive folks, is the factor that you simply most care about is what you might have achieved. Especially when you’re engaged on issues that in ardour, you might have tasks, two, or three, that are what I name life scripts. These are the issues that pressured me to put in writing and tells you, and I’m failing my life scripts, if I’m not doing sufficient to get them made. And I’m not discovering the actors that may turn out to be the provider wave to get them laid on. And I’m attempting, however I’m not attempting exhausting sufficient as a result of they deserve extra.
Alex Ferrari 1:28:16
Now, what was the most important concern you needed to overcome to make your first movie or write your first screenplay?
Pen Densham 1:28:26
Well, self doubt, I feel that that is the you already know that it is a waste of time. I’m a freakin fool, who am I, we got here to Hollywood. And we bought a few tasks. And we we decided though I’d gained all these awards for this drama, I certain that I did not know the way to write, and that Hollywood writers did not know the way to write. And so we employed writers. And then we regarded on the work notice that no higher than us, there have been, in actual fact, some methods we have been higher interpret, higher deciphering my concepts. And I saved doing that saved kind of attempting give somebody my concept, and have them write it as a result of I used to be scared, I would not succeed with it. I wasn’t adequate. And then if you see the outcome, you go, Oh, God, why did you do this? And I’ve performed that to 2 or three tasks the place you go, Oh, I ought to have stayed on and had the braveness to put in writing to self doubt is the most important drawback and placing your self with the suitable folks do not grasp round with individuals who do loads of medicine do Allah, you already know, I sound pompous saying that, however I did medicine. When I used to be a younger man. I attempted all of them in enjoyable. But I truly wish to hang around with folks which can be constructive, who’re self finding out, who’ve a imaginative and prescient of the longer term that’s optimistic, and are going to be drawback fixing, and they’ll be allies when it will get robust. And that these are the folks that you could construct a basis on. And coming to this city to begin a profession. You have to search out the People we have now to work collectively. Which is why looking for neighborhood locations like taking place to love college or one thing it, it places you in a banding alternative. And going by college or USC or one thing, I say, preserve reaching out that community of individuals can be important to you sooner or later, attempt to assist them attempt to give them issues so that they wish to commerce with as a result of someone do not thoughts somebody will know some entry to one thing that may change your life.
Alex Ferrari 1:30:32
Now, the place can folks discover your guide and extra about you?
Pen Densham 1:30:36
Well, I do not promote myself effectively sufficient. I did put up a sort of tacky wanting web site referred to as writing the alligator calm. And you possibly can obtain a free chapter from my guide, which I like. And additionally you possibly can obtain this hyperlink to downloading a guide I wrote, which is a mini guide referred to as a inventive individual success supervisor. I wrote that out of ardour. When my son wrote me an electronic mail. He’s additionally a author, and we are likely to mentor one another. And he wrote me an electronic mail one evening saying, I hate that is terrible. And I made a decision I needed to write him a letter by by six o’clock the subsequent day, after all, myself. And then the concepts saved coming. So I ended up with this, what I name a mini guide, which was only a philosophy of structuring the method of creativity in a means that you possibly can embrace it, and see your self inside it and see that you simply’re regular. And that the sentiments you might have are a part of being a particular inventive individual. And there’s issues in there, which I needed to share, be taught from different folks. So that is at no cost. I received I persuaded Michael, we see books may give it away. And
Alex Ferrari 1:31:51
that was a giant, that is a giant, that is a giant ask.
Pen Densham 1:31:55
You know, what they see on this? Michael AC books is the very best movie guide firm on this planet. Because they was Michael says, I’ll ask an writer to put in writing a guide, I do not essentially imagine we’ll promote profitably, however as a result of I feel this voice must be within the movie neighborhood. And so as a substitute of writing books which can be like professional forma, which some corporations do, you bought to have these stereotypical stuffs in a guide, he is asking his writers to search out their very own ardour expressed by the guide. And they’re cool. So you will get when you go to writing the alligator.com, and doing my pitch, which I very seldom do, you will get led to each the obtain of a chapter, which is designed to encourage you to put in writing, designed to remove that concern that you should do it in a sure course of, however to truly embrace your self as being the instrument and that you simply’re entitled to permit that instrument to play itself as you uncover it. And that, that once more, is that if I might inform if someone ever will get up at an Oscar and says, You know, I learn that chapter and it helped me I can be so proud.
Alex Ferrari 1:33:07
Penn It has been an absolute pleasure speaking to you right now it’s you you’ve got dropped all kinds of data bombs on the tribe right now and I actually actually admire you taking the time to to share your expertise your and your data and your knowledge with us. So thanks once more for taking the day trip. I actually admire it.
Pen Densham 1:33:26
Thank you a lot. You’re a terrific interview, and I loved it. It was simple to do.
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